How fast can one progress as a rider?

[Summertime]

Hi everyone,

I am a First Level dressage rider, who currently half leases a WB x TB gelding. He has a couple of health problems, so at the moment, I try to get him a little bit out of his comfort zone, so that he streches and bends more easily and I try to get a more stable connection. So I am really working on the most basic stuff. However, in the long term, I would love to improve my riding, so that I can get to the more “difficult” tricks like simple and flying changes, half passes etc. I only have a lease horse, so I only have limited saddle time, but within the next 2 to 3 years, I am planning on buying my own horse, so that I can train more frequently and, hopefully, progress faster.

What I wondered though was how fast a rider can actually progress in their dressage carreer, meaning how fast one could actually work their way up from First Level to the FEI Levels. So I wanted to ask the “more advanced” riders in this forum: How long did it take you to progress to your current level and how did you do it? Did you train your first horse all the way up to the FEI levels? Or did you maybe have a schoolmaster, who already knew “all the tricks”? What made your journey easier or harder? And how long do you think does it take an average rider to move up the levels? Is it even possible for an average talented person to get to the FEI levels? I would love to hear your opinions (Also, please note that English is not my mother tongue, so my text might be a bit funny to read for you native speakers)

[Mondo]

The very nature of your question comes from a place of impatience. How long did it take me? That won’t give you any information about how long it is going to take you. There are just too many variables. But take it to the bank that it is going to take years. I sense (apologies if I am incorrect) that you want to get there fast! I teach many adult beginners and lower level riders and at least half of them are impatient to “get to the good stuff.” If that is you, then I suggest you might want to learn a different style of riding. Dressage is hard. It is an art as well as a sport. It’s not something you can learn in a month or two. It just isn’t.

If you want to progress, you need, first and foremost, an excellent instructor. You need to audit clinics with BNTs when possible. You need to read the old (and new) masters and practice what you read because just reading won’t teach you anything, but feeling it will. If you have the opportunity, learning the ropes on a schoolmaster is optimum. Training your first horse from Training Level to Grand Prix is certainly possible, but it will take you a LOT longer and you will make far more mistakes. Those mistakes will be at your horse’s expense. Finally, saddle time. You mentioned that you are leasing so can only ride so much - I presume that is why you want to get your own horse. Good thinking. If you can afford it, I recommend a lower level schoolmaster so you can learn up to 3rd level. When you are proficient at 3rd (or whatever passes for 3rd level in your country), then you can continue your journey and your horse’s by taking him beyond that to Prix St. Georges, Intermediate, and Grand Prix if the horse is able.

TL;DR - don’t worry about how long it takes. The joy truly is in the journey.

[Scribbler]

I have a horse with little dressage talent. I taught her lateral walk moves, collected to working trot, walk canter departures on a good day, etc

I did not know whether I was making progress.

Last year I got a chance to ride my coach’s school master mare, schooling up to parts of 4th level but with sticky changes. It turned out to be really easy because both horses were trained to the same cues. However at the same time when I did 1st level tests on her I was challenged to make everything precise and clean and balanced.

So what level do I ride? No idea. I might not do well on a very big gaited horse until I adapted to the gaits.

Anyhow for dressage you need overall balance seat tact and saddle time in addition to the dressage specific cues.

How fast you progress will depend on your basic level of riding entering dressage, your innate athleticism, the quality of instruction and whether you have access to well trained horses or need to train your own.

I would imagine a pro rider in another discipline could make the transition faster. There are videos where a reiner and dressage rider switch horses for a demo and both do credibly well.

How long would it take a jumper rider to do a competent course at 1 meter? How long would it take a reiner to do a credible pattern? How long does it take an adult intermediate rider to get an independent seat and tactful aids?

It is so individual. A very good rider in another discipline could probably transition to riding a made GP horse in under a year.

The rest of us, not so much.

[2tempe]

a bunch of years ago I bought a 15 yr old OTTB who was taken off track by a woman when he was two. Over the course of the next bunch of years she trained him and showed him thru 4th. He could do all the PSG work. I could not sit his - (or probably many horses’ trot). Had a long background in h/j world and trail riding, my equitation was not the best… I lessoned one time per week, rode several other times, probably 5x per week total. We did one level per season, starting with training level. He was a saint of horse, and I worked pretty hard on myself and our communications. When he was 20 we did our first PSG. This horse was regionally competitve thru 4th, at PSG we were very consistently in the high 50’s. His (our ) issue was “needs more collection” which was not going to happen given his age, long body and my inability to push his hind end where it needed to be. But the experience and the journey and the temperament of this horse raised him to sainthood in my eyes, and taught me a lot.
In this case all the stars aligned. I had a decent trainer, the horse was, even then relatively inexpensive given breed and age, he was sound as could be, and could take a joke as I muddled through.
Then there are horses who break your heart or your wallet. My next mare vetted fine and after about a year it was one thing after another healthwise. None of them simple or cheap. I did not show or even progress in my learning over 4 years+, even though I then had the time and access to training. It sucked.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Summertime

What I wondered though was how fast a rider can actually progress in their dressage carreer, meaning how fast one could actually work their way up from First Level to the FEI Levels.

Training level to grand prix in 5 years is the fastest I’ve seen in a very specialized program. Riders began at 13/14 and the families purchased or leased a grand prix schoolmaster. Riders at that point could ride the movements of training level, maybe first. Multiple horses, 5 days a week, homeschooled, showing almost every weekend.

By 16 the riders were showing 4th/PSG and then the “young horse” would be purchased. By 18 or 19 riders would have their gold medal and be preparing the young horse for FEI. By the age of 21 these riders either had their own successful program training horses or were completely out of horses because the family expected the rider to go the med school/law school/etc. The one I personally know is a hell of a rider but estimates that her family spent well over $100k a year on training and showing.

Since most of us are no longer 14 and probably do not have 7 figures to invest in our hobby, I think a level a year is very ambitious for the average pair even in full training. A level every two years for a dedicated pair without any big bumps and regular access to training is still impressive.

@Summertime

However, in the long term, I would love to improve my riding, so that I can get to the more “difficult” tricks like simple and flying changes, half passes etc.

If the goal is to experience the tricks, the best way is to try and find lessons on a schoolmaster and be very transparent with the trainer about your goals. Many trainers are not willing to have their schoolmaster used in this way because a lot of the “tricks” put a fair amount of wear and tear on the joints when drilled by a novice rider. However, you may find one willing, and doing a few lessons a week you could ride through some of the tricks in under a year. The ability to train the “tricks” or even ride those same movements on another well school horse is an entirely different ball of wax.

[outerbanks77]

I’ve been trying to become a dressage rider for about 13 years now. I was a decent all-around rider prior to that. I’m still pretty much a 1st/2nd level rider, and have dabbled in some of the 3rd level work. Much of this is due to having some bad luck with lame/crazy/unsuitable horses, lack of access to trainers and zero schoolmasters.

But you know what? I’m a hell of a better first level rider than I was 13, or even 3 years ago because I’ve had my nose to the grindstone learning and working on my seat, timing of aids, and understanding theory. If I’m a hell of a better fist level rider 3 years from now than I am today, I won’t be sad, even though I have FEI goals. If you want to ride the tricks, the best bet is to pay to ride a schoolmaster under the tutelage of an upper level trainer and get as many lunge lessons and saddle time as you can. However, if you want to learn to train up a dressage horse using the gymnastic system, the “tricks” are just a by-product, and you have to fall in love with the process, which takes a lifetime of study and hard work.

[Balmonty]

The first horse I trained to PSG we got there very fast. I decided I wanted to knuckle down with dressage and learn the tricks. The horse I was riding was an agreeable 4yo at training level, by 8yo he was entered in his first Prix St George before an injury forced his early retirement.

Teaching the tricks is easy. Once you can control the shoulders and the hind quarters, you can do tricks. Once you have a good canter aid, you can do flying changes. BUT - with my first dressage horse that is all I was doing was tricks. He wasn’t through, he wasn’t engaged, he was strung out and we didn’t score well. But I had a ball and he was perfectly happy doing tricks. But I still had (and still have), so much more to learn!

So the point is, the tricks are easy. Doing the moves correctly is harder and requires a lot more preparation and feel. If you want to do well as you progress, you really need to work hard. That doesn’t mean just work the horse hard. You need to listen to your trainer and take constructive criticism. You need to watch every lesson you can, study every youtube clip about dressage that you can. You need to study the best riders. Feel is very hard to train but if you are dedicated and committed, you can still become a talented rider.

A horse can be trained from green broken to Grand Prix in about 5 years.
Horses are smarter than humans though because generally it takes a human about 20 years to get to Grand Prix.

Good luck!

[CanteringCarrot]

It takes as long as it takes.

Also, dressage isn’t about “tricks” I don’t know why this bothers me so much, but stop calling upper level dressage movements tricks. And no, the tricks, when done properly, are not “easy” if they were, everyone would be doing them and we wouldn’t see so many riders and horses in the lower levels. Yes, in theory and most practice, if you install the basics correctly, have the knowledge, and are persistent, many other things will fall into place.

Now, I will say that some horses are easier than others or offer certain movements more readily and naturally. However, this can also fool some riders or allow them to ask for things too soon and create holes in training. Or it can work out just fine. I think giving the recent thread “Question for those of you who have gone up the levels quickly” would be worth a read. Just some things to keep in mind through your journey from people that have been there and done that.

As with any sport, you do get athletes, of the human and horse variety in this case, with more talent than others. The whole thing is so subjective. Whether it’s about talent, money, time, soundness (of horse and rider!) access to good training, no major bumps along the road/life getting in the way, and so on.

[Lunabear1988]

I haven’t made it to the upper levels and I’ve been n riding dressage for about 12 years. But I had breaks here and there (one freak accident that led to me putting a horse down and another young horse who vetted clean ended up with a progressive, neurological condition. Oh and I got pregnant in the middle of that.)

I think the more time in the saddle and the better access to good instructors, the quicker you will get there.

Others have pointed out, that it’s more about getting to the “tricks.” If anything I think Dressage is not a good sport for anyone in a rush. You’d be better off learning the movements and thinking about how the improve the horse, rather than doing tricks. There is a point to what we ask the horse to do in a test. The more you understand the why of a movement, the better of a rider you will become imo.

[joiedevie99]

It really depends. I had an excellent foundation of 20+ years of daily riding between Pony Club, eventing, jumpers, hunters, and equitation. I showed third level 6 months after I committed to dressage as an adult, and PSG after 2 years. I had excellent instruction at least 4 days/week, and suitable horses that understood the work even if they weren’t the easiest.

[eponacelt]

It depends. Completely depends. However, lets assume you could be riding a horse trained at least to PSG. The most limiting factor for you will be YOUR strength. I never knew how hard dressage as until I moved from First to Second level. The sheer core strength required to do it right meant over a year of working with a personal trainer and working hard at my own fitness. So, in addition to keeping up your riding education, you need to work on your own cardio fitness and body strength with a focus on core, glutes, and hamstrings. This could take YEARS. Riding the PSG for me was something I did a few years ago, and now as I bring another horse up through the levels, I’m having to continue to build and maintain strength.

Good luck!Schedule

[doctordarling]

Its a very long, lifelong journey, but I think that’s whats so fascinating about it - you never come to the end. There’s a beautiful anecdote by Alois Podhajsky, director of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, Austria as well as an Olympic medal-winner in dressage, riding instructor, and write. I think its in the foreword to ‘Complete Training of horse and rider’ where he writes about going to visit in hospital his dying mentor, over 80 years old, who murmurs ‘only now, am I beginning to understand’.

Those better read in dressage theory will be able to place the quote [and i can’t find my copy tonight of CTOH&R] Happy to stand corrected.

I started riding at about aged 6, went to once a week riding school lessons, fairly consistently til 16, got young horse [bad idea-we survived each other, just … gave up horses for uni/marriage/living abroad. Came back to them 28 years later at 46 on a free-lease OTTB. 3 years later in 2012 I bought a PSG w/b and for eight years worked five days a week every week to ‘catch up’ with him. The best experience I could have ever had. He retired at 23 with us competing at Advanced, so nearly caught up.

With my new, talented 6 year old mare, who wants to learn, and is ‘quick as’, I daily bless those eight years of hard graft and multiple mistakes, and I look at videos of me and my schoolmaster and wonder again how he put up with me. But riding his already installed canter pirouettes helps me ride her big, gangly but promising canter. Knowing the difference in feel between the working, collected, medium and extended gaits, as well as the lateral work, helps me feel where she’s at.

But since we’re talking time, there’s my 20 ish years against Alois’s mentor’s 70 years … I have 50 years to go! and at 56 now I don’t see myself riding til I’m 106 so… yeah, it takes a long time. But, as Goethe said, “the greatest joy on earth is found on the back of a horse”.

[Willesdon]

To add, I do believe that to develop “feel” it is necessary to ride many different horses. Each has their own character, their own abilities, strengths and weaknesses, each will teach you something new every time you ride them. Each will require you to unlock the puzzle, work out their mind, respect their opinions. When horse and rider like each other, respect each other, it is a wonderful partnership.

[merrygoround]

Learning, and riding dressage is a building block process. First you must learn to control all parts of your body, making adjustments quickly and smoothly. It has long been my observation that good surfers, good skiers, good dancers usually make excellent riders, particularly surfers.

At the same time, you must come to understand ,the what, where, why and how of each gymnastic move you are requesting of the horse. There really are no cues, as in three taps of the leg mean canter. or making a kissing sound gets you canter. The inside leg at the girth, the ouside leg back are aids to the canter for a reason. The inside leg encourages the horse to bend that way while the rider’s outside leg asks the horse’s outside hind to reach under. The rider’s lower body position places the outside shoulder forward, and inside shoulder back which supports the proper head and neck bend. Note, I said supports, the head and neck position do not get you canter all by itself.

These same aids applied differently with slightly different emphasis from the rider’s various body parts can get you other entirely different gymnastic reactions.

It does help to have a schooled horse under you.

Of course they can deliver some really deflating reactions to your aids. :lol:

[thara96]

Be patient. This is my first key piece of advice. Start at the bottom and work up. I spent a lot of time working on bonding with my current horse for a few weeks before I even considered it. Then five summers ago in July that year, I competed in my first ever introductory level test with him after a lot of work in the dressage lessons and silent prayers.
Now we are currently aiming to do the first level of dressage later this year. I took a extended break due to giving birth to twin girls in November of 2016 and much more recently my third one, a baby boy in early January. He is four months old now. It takes time. Do not stress either. Keep going instead. Trust your horse.

[outerbanks77]

@eponacelt

It depends. Completely depends. However, lets assume you could be riding a horse trained at least to PSG. The most limiting factor for you will be YOUR strength. I never knew how hard dressage as until I moved from First to Second level. The sheer core strength required to do it right meant over a year of working with a personal trainer and working hard at my own fitness. So, in addition to keeping up your riding education, you need to work on your own cardio fitness and body strength with a focus on core, glutes, and hamstrings. This could take YEARS. Riding the PSG for me was something I did a few years ago, and now as I bring another horse up through the levels, I’m having to continue to build and maintain strength.

Good luck!Schedule

Oh yeah. Consider yourself an athlete and do what you can to maintain and preserve your strength, balance and flexibility. It can take a long time to get all the pieces in place with the right horse, trainer, barn and funding, so you want to still have the physical ability once you have those. It’s more difficult to get it back later in life than it is to keep it and maintain it.

Riding multiple horses, and also following a workout regime and good diet help a lot. Recently I set up a saddle on a stand that I can use as an office chair. Even that is going a long way towards training my seat and keeping my hips flexible so I can make the most of the limited time I have on my horse (hope to have two in full work by this summer).

[Core6430]

This is the formula i think you need to progress with the most speed and correctness up the levels:

1. ABSOLUTE best trainer in the country you can get to (i.e. trains at GP, has students successfully riding GP, has good scores and students have good scores)

B) a purpose bred horses with some proof they can do the work.

C) Massive amounts of money to pay for all of it and the care required to keep the horse in tip top shape.

You can still move up the levels (a bit slower) if you’re missing the massive amounts of money, or the purpose bred horse, but a bad trainer will hamstring you.

Putting your horse in full training would also help.
or buying a GP school master.

[eponacelt]

@Core6430

This is the formula i think you need to progress with the most speed and correctness up the levels:

1. ABSOLUTE best trainer in the country you can get to (i.e. trains at GP, has students successfully riding GP, has good scores and students have good scores)

Putting your horse in full training would also help.
or buying a GP school master.

This is great advice. Look for a trainer who isn’t just riding at FEI, but has trained other horses and riders to get there as well. I don’t have any problem with trainers who have borrowed or leased horses to get their medals, I truly don’t, but if I want someone to help me train my horse to FEI, they better well have demonstrated that they’ve done it before, ideally both on their own horses and with students. My trainer has made countless FEI horses, and has many amateur riders who she’s helped to get their Bronze, Silver, and Gold medals on horses they’ve brought up the levels themselves.Schedule

[Edre]

The answer to this is highly variable.

It depends on the horse.
It depends on the rider.
It depends on the goals.
It depends on the trainer.
It depends on the budget.

Your question “How fast can one progress as a rider” is introducing that progress is measured by what level you ride at. This can be one means to measure progress, but it is not the only way.

Someone can lease a grand prix schoolmaster and make it up through the levels. They may have an understanding at the end of it of how to ride all the movements on a schooled, educated horse, but these riders may not have the foundation to bring a young horse along/teach a horse how to be a grand prix horse. Similarly, a different rider may have a horse that they bring up through the levels but hasn’t the ability or skill to make it past a certain point: these riders may have a better capability of training/bringing horses along despite not being “a grand prix rider”. So ultimately, it really depends on what your definition of “progress” is.

In general (I’m going to speak in generics because while there are always exceptions to the rule, these tend to remain outliers) riders progress more quickly if they are not having to teach a horse at the same time as they are learning the movements themselves. This means that for a training or first level rider, they might be best off looking to lease a second or third level schoolmaster who can teach them the movements up to whatever level the horse is confirmed at. Once the rider is hitting the point where the horse (education, skill, or soundness) maxes out at, they look at changing to a different lease with a more advanced education, and so on and so forth.

So to my points above: It depends on the horse. Some will find the work easier than others, all have different capabilities, levels of training. It depends on the rider with their level of education, fitness, ability, and how quickly they learn. It also depends on what the rider’s goals are: do you want to get to a certain level as quickly as you can (incidentally, I agree with others above: don’t rush just because you are impatient) or do you only want to advance past a certain level once you meet a certain marker? The rider who doesn’t want to move up until they feel like they’ve truly mastered a certain level generally may take more time than the rider who is hastier. The trainers you have access to can impact many things (your access to lease horses is a great example, but also access to horses of a certain level of education). And of course, it’s always easier if you have a bigger disposable income.