I have the opportunity to go hunting this fall and am really excited about it. Definitely more for the horsey part than the hunting part. I woke up last night wondering what it says about me as a person that I allow an animal to be chased and killed for my entertainment. So I made a list of pros and cons.
Pros:
-They hunt foxes or coyotes, which are a nuisance to farmers
-The hounds quickly kill the animal by breaking it’s neck (is that true?)
-The animal did not live some horrible life, like factory farmed animals
Cons:
-The animal is chased sometimes for a long time, and will be scared before it dies
-Hunting with a rifle would be quicker and more humane than a pack of hounds
-There is no reason to chase down a live animal when there is drag hunting
I am not trying to attack anyone. I just want to have good reasons why I should or should not go hunting. I really love the idea of the tradition and the group of horses and riders all dressed up riding across the countryside. I want to hunt just once in my life. DH thinks it’s no different or less barbaric than bullfighting (which we both agreed, wasn’t much of a “sport” - like 10 guys against one tired bull).
I have no problem with the idea of deer hunting where you pick off a deer that comes by your stand. He never knows what’s coming and (hopefully) dies instantly. (But I have never done hunting of any kind). Man, I am so talking myself out of this! I really just want some reasons why it’s OK, so I can tell DH why it’s OK, so he doesn’t think I’m the kind of person that will inhumanely chase/kill an animal just for the thrill of riding my horse! I know this whole thing makes me sound like some PETA freak, but I’m not.
Feel free to clear up any misconceptions that I have.
In my limited experience the hounds never actually catch and/or kill the fox. I was told it happens maybe once per season if that and generally meant there was something wrong physically with that fox.
I hope you don’t get flamed, because your post sounded calm and rational to me… I’ve never fox-hunted (can’t wait to try), but I grew up on a farm in a hunting family and I am a hunter, so I can speak from that perspective…
From what I understand, in American fox hunts, it is relatively uncommon for the fox to be killed; I think it’s more the sport of the chase, and it’s not uncommon for the same fox to be hunted year after year. (I’m sure the foxhunters will weigh in on this!) I don’t know if coyotes are killed with any more frequency than foxes in mounted hunts, but to most farmowners that I know, the only good coyote is a dead coyote (which is why there’s no restricted season or bag limits to hunt them, at least not in PA-- the more coyotes you take, the better), so I’m sure the farmowners are happy to get rid of as many coyotes as possible, by whatever means necessary.
As for the hunted animal coming to a humane death… well, I guess that’s a matter of opinion. In terms of “regular” (non-mounted) hunting, I’d say it’s probably pretty uncommon that the animal dies instantly; a deer is often wounded and goes for at least a short distance until it drops. It all depends on the skill of the hunter and any of hundreds of other factors. The same could be said for dogs… my parents’ pit-bull mix loves other animals and cuddles the family cat, but for some reason, she HATES groundhogs and will kill them at any opportunity; she grabs them by the neck and with one big shake and SNAP-- they’re dead; it’s usually pretty darned quick. But not always.
I think that the foxhunters you will meet are NOT bloodthirsty crazy people who are going to treat a kill like a gladiator death match; I like to think most foxhunters are like most deer hunters I know… we don’t particularly enjoy “the kill” part, but we respect the honor of the animal, if that makes any sense.
If it makes you feel any better I just found out that our local hunt, Radnor, no longer hunts to kill. DD just started going out with them and came home with that interesting fact after Hunting 101. I was a bit surprised considering the number of fox I see out hacking.
When I was a kid and hunting with Pickering I never witnessed a kill in the years I went out regularly. Although, I do believe they may have caught one once when I was home sick. As Laurie mentioned, I remember being told that there was something wrong with the fox because of how it was caught (on a porch?).
In the US the rule is: If the fox goes to ground, you go find another fox. The fox runs for as long as he wants because the US has ground hogs who dig a lot of nice safe holes for fox to go into. My husband and I have been out hacking both during and just after the season and had fox give us dirty looks because we are not chasing them. In the Northern VA areas, the members of the hunt know their fox, know where they are likely to run if the fox do decide to give the hounds/hunts a thrilll, and take care that they are healthy. In our area the primary crops are hay, feed corn, cattle and horses so the fox, who help control the rodent population, are a benefit.
In the UK the fox are killed, because they are considered vermin. UK crops tends to be chickens, sheep and vegetable crops which are fox food and treats. The UK has hedge hogs so no convenient holes for the fox to hide. The farmers allowed the hunts on their property to control the fox populations.
Well that makes me feel better that some foxes are hunted many times, and that we want to preserve them in the US. I would be going as the guest of a member of the hunt. I know a coyote has been killed at least once when she went. I also realize that even with rifle hunting, not everybody is a perfect shot. I will try it out and see what I think!
You might want to read some of the fabulous Rita Mae Brown novels. They are primarily about foxhunting, and extremely accrurately written, since the author is a staff member (master?) of the hunt!
It’ll give you a great feel in words about what foxhunting is all about and give you a great mystery to read, too! Start at the first one, and you’ll be hooked into reading them ALL! Start with “Outfoxed”…
Hunting is a blast. If you like to run and jump in beautiful country, you’ll do it again and again…
I have no problem with the idea of deer hunting where you pick off a deer that comes by your stand. He never knows what’s coming and (hopefully) dies instantly. (But I have never done hunting of any kind). Man, I am so talking myself out of this! I really just want some reasons why it’s OK, so I can tell DH why it’s OK, so he doesn’t think I’m the kind of person that will inhumanely chase/kill an animal just for the thrill of riding my horse! I know this whole thing makes me sound like some PETA freak, but I’m not.
Feel free to clear up any misconceptions that I have.
-[/QUOTE]
Don’t be so quick to assume that hunting with a gun is safer/more humane. It is very common for people hunting deer to miss and deliver a non-fatal blow and not bother to track the animal to kill it. (Yes, I have seen this first hand)
Also, deer hunters are generally after the biggest, most beautiful specimen they can find, essentially eliminating the best animals from the gene pool. If a fox or coyote is killed out hunting with hounds it is not a healthy animal and would have either starved to death or frozen to death. I firmly believe that it makes the population (at least in part) healthier. This is not to say that I don’t believe in hunting with a rifle, I surely do, but I do not consider hunting with hounds any less humane.
There are many hunt clubs now that no longer go after real foxes. Our hunt is a “drag” – we have human foxes who lay down the scent for the hounds.
I’m sure to purists that’s not really hunting but our territories are constrained and drag hunting guarantees a good run in areas where we’re allowed to ride.
gray_pony - do you want the romantic, glamorized version…or the real thing?
Glamorous? Ok. Here’s that version: Rita Mae Brown’s books. Disney, too. All the same. You dress to the nines in gorgeous hunt attire, ride your perfectly clean and oh so talented horse around the countryside and jump the fences in line, and hob nob at the tailgate afterwards, discussing the fun you all had, how many runs, how many jumps, and how thrilling it all was. No foxes are ever hurt, and everyone is thrilled if they are lucky enough to catch a view. That’s the sanitized picture.
Reality? Here’s that version from a foxhunter who has been riding to hounds for well over 35 years: A pack (upwards of 20-50) of well trained, well fed, large foxhounds (twice as big and strong as the fox, far bigger than a coyote) are cast by a huntsman in the most appropriate area that would be frequented by the preferred game. Hounds, if they find, will immediately give tongue, a trait that is bred into them in order for the game to be alerted and thus driven ahead at a run, thereby laying a scent the hounds can follow at speed. That is what is now considered the “sport” in foxhunting. If the game is clever enough it may - but not always - elude the hounds. If the game is pressed hard, it may “go to ground” (stop and hide). That is NOT always a safe option - if the hounds can get in the spot as well, they WILL kill their quarry. I’ve seen a number of kills in my years - it is not always the ill or sick foxes that meet an untimely end. It is also the visiting foxes that do not know the territory, the ones that make a wrong move at the wrong time, or a bad choice of not finding a hole or hiding place deep or secure enough. Saying it is only the sick or ill fox/coyote that are killed is bogus. If a hound can jump the quarry, it will kill it.
Is it humane? Chasing or harassing a wild animal is never humane. Foxhunting started as a way to reduce/eliminate a despised farm pest and barnyard foul killer. 20-50 hounds against one fox. It was never meant to be humane. And the basis of the chase remains the same - hounds vs the chosen game. But…compared to a pack of silent farm dogs that will mutely following a scent until they surprise their quarry by chancing upon it almost nose to nose, then chase it down and kill it, OR, the poor bull in a ring unable to escape, harrassed and tortured by 10 or more men who are stabbing and piercing its hide to weaken it before teasing it to a bloody, pitiful exhaustion before stabbing it through the heart …then yes, foxhunting with foxhounds is far more “humane” in today’s sense of the word…at least to the fox which is alerted long before by the hound voices, or the sound of the huntsman encouraging the hounds to find, and has the whole of its own territory in which to elude, escape and hide. You would be surprised at the amount of “noise” produced in scaring up game - huntsman’s voice and horn encouraging the hounds - all with the aim of finding and getting the game up and moving early enough to speed out of the area and lay a scent trail to follow. In the US, if the game has gone to ground in a secure enough spot where the hounds are unable to continue to pursue it the huntsman does not “bolt” the game. The hounds are “cheered” by horn and voice at the site to “reward” them for a job well done, and then they are called together and taken away to be recast somewhere else to find new game in which to run and lay scent. If an area is hunted too hard or too often, it may discourage foxes from staying - hence the need for a hunt to have a large enough territory so that no one area is “overhunted” to the detriment of the game.
Whatever your role in this is, don’t be ignorant of what is going on in reality.
Well…the hounds will kill a fox faster than my house cat will kill a mouse. She likes to play with them for a while…she is not very humane.
They do occassionally kill a fox…but there is a reason why the saying is “as cunning as a fox”. The foxes often outwit the hounds but it is still really neat to watch the hounds follow a scent. Even neater when you are not with the field and hilltoping where you have a better chance of seeing the fox and then seeing how close the hounds follow the track the fox took. I’ve seen the fox lay down its trail (and cross over its own tracks)…and then sit high on a far hill and watch the hounds for a while before ducking into a safe spot.
Uh - I don’t know where you’re getting your information but that isn’t true. If in doubt, just consult your state game department or ask your game warden/CPO.
Wildlife management is a science. Hunting with hounds, any form of deer hunting, or any other type of hunting is highly regulated - and taking “the best” is not the goal. The goal is to manage wildlife populations.
That isn’t done by killing “the best” - with the exception of a spring gobbler season - but even then the science strongly supports spring gobbler season as a proven measure to increase wild turkey populations. (if you want details I’ll give 'em to you)
Hunting with hounds mimics the role of an apex predator in an ecosystem. Unlike a natural apex predator, the hunting hound(s) does not remain in the habitat 24/7/365; and so cannot replicate the role of the apex predator. But they do a darn fine job of keeping wildlife wild.
Humans generally do not tolerate apex predators in close proximity to their homes. The absence of predators means that prey species multiply indiscriminately, their natural behavior changes, they overgraze their habitat, and otherwise wreak havoc on their habitat (and cause collisions/human injuries and deaths).
The only animal that hunts similarly to a foxhound pack is the wolf. (only very generally)
The wolf is the ultimate predator - hunting in packs and culling the weak, unwary, sick or just plain stupid.
Coyotes are predators, and so is the red and grey fox. But they are lower in the food chain, and the absence of the wolf pack allows coyote and fox populations to grow out of control; which impacts the entire ecosystem. Coyotes impact fox populations, wolves impact coyote populations, but in the absence of wolves only hunting hounds keep populations in anything resembling balance.
So too does the still hunter. The man or woman with a bow or firearm. Humans are predators too.
Still hunters don’t pick out the best deer. They are required to fill their tags with does or antlerless deer (including button bucks) before attempting to take a large buck.
Most hunters never even bother. The purpose of hunting is to fill the freezer - and many hunter also fill the freezer of the less fortunate. (Hunters for the Hungry)
American sportsmen developed the North American Wildlife Conservation Model over 100 years ago. They recognized that the destruction caused by market gunners was destroying our natural resources.
This model exists no where else on the planet.
There are several key components of the Model - called the Seven Sisters of Conservation.
1)Sister #1: The Public Trust
[B]In North America, natural resources on public lands are managed by government agencies to ensure that we always have wildlife and wild places to enjoy.
[/B]Sister #2: Prohibition on Commerce of Dead Wildlife
[B]Conservation laws and their strong enforcement in the United States and Canada saved wildlife from slaughter.
3)[/B]Sister #3: Democratic Rule of Law
[B]You can help make laws to regulate hunting and fishing and conserve wildlife.
[/B]Sister #4: Hunting Opportunity for All
[B]Every citizen has an opportunity, under the law, to hunt and fish in the United States and Canada.
[/B]
Sister #5: Non-frivolous Use
[B]In North America, we can legally kill certain wild animals under strict guidelines for food and fur, self-defense and property protection.
6)[/B]Sister #6: International Resources
[B]Wildlife and fish migrate freely across boundaries between states, provinces and countries.
[/B]
Sister #7: Scientific Management
[B]The right information helps us make good decisions and become better stewards of wildlife.
[/B]Implementation of this model has resulted in the preservation and conservation of hundreds of thousands of acres of habitat, restoration of wetlands, increased population of migratory birds, protections for wildlife, our park system - and it is due to this model.
There is also a concept called “Fair Chase”, and American foxhunters abide by this ethic, and incorporate it into the hunting ethics espoused by the MFHA.
This means that sportsmen do not engage in acts that impair or disable an animals ability to escape to shelter, no animals are captured and released to hunt, and at all times the hunter must abide by the ethics of Fair Chase, and the North American Wildlife Conservation Model.
For anyone that wants to foxhunt, you can rest assured that you’re about to become part of that long line of sportsmen who sought to preserve our natural resources, believed in the ethics of hunting, and believed that good science is the best tool in wildlife management.
Buy your hunting license, learn about concepts like Fair Chase, visit the MFHA website, and most of all - please read about the North American Wildlife Conservation Model - and why North American is unsurpassed in preserving our natural resources. But you ARE hunting. This type of stress is absolutely normal for a wild animal - and absent that stress wildlife becomes less wild, overgrazes, overpopulates, and there is nothing to cull the weak, injured or really stupid. Most fox are chased for many years - the odds are ALWAYS in the quarry’s favor. Always. But if you’ve ever seen a fox suffering horribly from mange - you will understand that nature is not kind, and death is not always an unwelcome presence.
Also, deer hunters are generally after the biggest, most beautiful specimen they can find, essentially eliminating the best animals from the gene pool. [/QUOTE]
In order for those deer to become the trophy specimens that you mention in your post, they must reach a fairly ripe old age. Those deer hunters that are looking for a “trophy” will watch a particular deer for many years and determine when its best to harvest him. He has had many years to pass on his genes. During this process the hunter is also keeping his eye on the other bucks in the herd and culling the ones that don’t have the genetics to be a trophy. Also the Va Dept of Game and Inland Fisheries provides a program to deer hunters called DMAP. In order to be in the program the hunters agree to collect an and send in extra information. It is through this data that the state game biologist decides what is a healthy herd number for that area and provides the tags for the harvest of that many does. The only antler tags you receive are the ones that you get when you buy your big game hunting license.
My husband manages the deer population on 4 pieces of property. He is allotted 14 doe tags on the smallest property (250 acres) and close to 30 doe tags on the largest (1,400 acres).
Prior to game management the deer and turkey populations were very low.
Hunters provide more money and knowledge and other resources to improve game populations than any other group.
Thats all well and good, and I HIGHLY respect hunters like that, and I have nothing against it. However, around here, too many people will take down anything with antlers. And, yes, I had hunters come out of the woods and ask me if the “dogs” hunted deer because they had shot and not killed and “didn’t feel like tracking it”. Made me lose a bit of faith.
Then you did not deal with hunters. You dealt with poachers.
A poacher is not a hunter/sportsman. He or she is a criminal. Though to be fair, in your state a sportsman is not permitted to track wounded game that goes onto private land. It creates a moral dilemma for the sportsman.
But since deer hunting with dogs isn’t legal in NY I don’t know why you’d even bring it up. You dealt with poachers and should have called the game warden.
NEVER confuse the two, and don’t insult the tens of thousands of law abiding ethical sportsman out there who have, single handedly, funded EVERY conservation effort in the United States for the past 100 years.
We willingly impose license fees and taxes on ourselves to FUND conservation and restore wildlife and wildlife habitat. At the federal, state and local level. And often, the sportsman derives no direct benefit from that conservation - it is done for the greater good - not just so they can hunt.
The parks YOU visit for free, WE pay for.
Who is assisting wildlife biologists in their research? Sportsmen. We participate in all kinds of research, helping scientists all over the United States to preserve and protect our natural resources.
Do you buy duck stamps? Sportsmen do - we created them - in partnership with the federal government. Those stamps help preserve and restore our nations wetlands. We pay taxes - heavy taxes on ammunition. All sorts of accessories. We pay license fees - and we pay a LOT in fees. Annually.
We do it so we can hunt - and because we value our natural resources and want future generations to enjoy them as well.
Try researching sites that are NOT animal rights sites and find out the truth about hunting. And foxhunting.
