How is ML so good at dressage ?

[Jealoushe]

I also thought that was for sure a 20.

Like ML or not - it is rather embarassing that she continually shows up and beats all the best riders and horse men and women.

You have to agree that she does have some talent in the dressage. I too would love to know who she works with? Is it Karen O Connor still? There were photos going around Facebook of her flash cranked super tight yet again. I wonder why the stewards did nothing?

It is a terrible image for eventing, to have someone who puts the biggest bit, with double reins, then carries on to pull the horses face off and bury her to multiple fences, almost come off several times, and barely make it around, then be declared the winner. This is the winner of the “Eventing Showcase”. Not a good look for us.

Embarassment to our sport.

Thankfully, there were many beautiful rides that day, some of which were by the younger riders who show great promise and clearly have a connection with their horses.

Also very proud of the Canadians who all rode beautifully.

[JER]

@Texarkana

I’m not going to pretend to know more than people competing at a level I will never ride at. But you can’t aggressively ride your way into those kind of dressage scores, or at least I don’t see how one can. So why the dramatic difference between the phases?

Could be due to all the scrap metal in the horse’s mouth on XC.

In dressage, you’re (mostly) limited to a bit that the horse can be ridden forward into.

On XC, the ML equines appear to sponsored by Rube Goldberg. You can’t ride a horse forward into all that. So the hocks trail out behind and the horse gets flat. And then ML tries to yank it back together a stride or two in front of the jump.

It’s odd that she doesn’t seem to trust her horses to go forward. If you’ve ever had a really hot, really forward horse on XC, you learn a couple of things if you want any success: (1) the horse is always straight - if you train this from the start, the horse will NEVER want to be unstraight; and (2) that you have to trust the horse and let it go forward.

[beowulf]

@add leg

I’m no fan of ML for a multitude of things, but it’s something I’ve always been curious about too - and I’m not asking in any kind of leading way. I’ve only been eventing for 3-4 years so I find it interesting she seems to score so well in the dressage vs riders who have years more experience than her who I find to be better riders (Phillip, Boyd, Doug Payne, Leslie Law, etc.) Does she have horses who are naturally stronger in the dressage than they do, but aren’t as safe XC? Is it a riding style? Better coaching (which would seem odd to me as I would guess any of those other top riders could access that as well)? I’m genuinely curious how she scores so well in the dressage.

My guess –
A. She has very good quality horses.
B. She prioritizes working on her dressage.
C. She has access to top quality (dressage) coaching.

There are only so many hours you can devote to schooling ringwork at the ULs, and the conditioning required is enormous and often competes directly with your available time to improve your dressage… A horse can only take so much work a day. I have never ridden at that level, and I never will – but I have been a groom/WS for riders actively competing at that level and have been involved in the conditioning schedules of those horses. Many devote specific days for specific sets and work, to get their horse in peak fitness and performance…

Having observed MLs horses over the years, I think it’s possible she is either not the person conditioning her horses (not uncommon for WSs to do it to free up a pro’s schedule for client horses), or she is prioritizing her dressage work over conditioning or XC – and it shows. It is a lot of work and saddle time, to get a horse fit enough for UL XC. Gallop sets are time consuming, and they can eat into a horse’s training/dressage/jumping schedule.

She consistently is putting in very good tests, I think she deserves those scores - but then you see her horse[s] are not in shape for the level, she does not seem as confident or strong XC, her stamina/strength visibly flags as the course goes on, horses are flagging half-way around the course, etc, and it seems to an outside observer like myself that certain preparations were not done for the level when it comes to the XC portion.

[Arlomine]

I’ve seen her tests in person. She’s only “good” at dressage because she is being judges at event standards… It is not “good” DRESSAGE.
The horse is tense, tight and held together.
yes, I know that event horses are muscled and conditioned differently than straight dressage horses. No I don’t expect them to be as supple, loose and through as straight dressage horses.

its simply that she is NOT doing good dressage. She is very good at muscling a horse around, in all respects.

[Texarkana]

@gottagrey

And the hate-on continues

I don’t think it’s necessarily a “hate-on.”

I try not to get involved in these types of discussions, because as a spectator, we don’t know what we don’t know about the situation. ML is a loaded topic because of past incidents, so it’s hard to even mention her name without biases creeping in.

But I think it’s a valid question that doesn’t just pertain to her-- there are a couple other upper level riders I can think of who consistently put in well above average dressage tests, then consistently have hairier, scarier, more aggressive XC rides than one would expect from a horse so soft, fluid, and obedient in dressage. It’s just that none of the other riders I’m thinking of have anywhere near the success or “fame” of ML, so it’s weirder to discuss them. Not to hold a double standard, but once you reach “team” status, you become an equestrian household name and are going to be open to a lot more conversation. You’re representing your country, people are going to talk about you.

I’d be willing to chock it up to the horses and their individual personalities, but it is curious when the trend being discussed seems to happen with multiple horses out of the same rider’s training program.

My perception could be totally wrong, but from this thread, it seems quite a number of people are seeing the same thing.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@beowulf what a great, eloquent explanation! Thank you–and especially troubling, given that the cross-country showcase format (which ML struggled with on a previous occasion) is a shortened course.

@Texarkana agreed. Not a pile-on, but a conversation that’s been going on in the sport for a long time. Dressage training can and should contribute to rideability cross-country (and in stadium) but the concern is always overemphasizing the dressage in scoring to such a degree it discourages a focus upon effective cross-country riding and conditioning. It’s not just ML (although her win prompted the discussion) but a couple of pairs, even ones I quite like, who have or had consistently great tests but really struggled with rideability and confidence in the jumping phases.

[Texarkana]

@Arlomine

I’ve seen her tests in person. She’s only “good” at dressage because she is being judges at event standards… It is not “good” DRESSAGE.
The horse is tense, tight and held together.
yes, I know that event horses are muscled and conditioned differently than straight dressage horses. No I don’t expect them to be as supple, loose and through as straight dressage horses.

its simply that she is NOT doing good dressage. She is very good at muscling a horse around, in all respects.

I don’t mean to sound rude, but I think this is a given that everyone understands. Just as you say, eventing dressage is not dressage dressage. No one is saying she is a beautiful dressage rider; they’re asking why she does so well in that phase in eventing.

She consistently outperforms her peers in eventing dressage, generally landing at or near the top of the leader board. Then she consistently has successful XC runs that can be hard to watch as a spectator-- a lot of heavily-bitted horses, a lot of pulling/kicking, a lot of heart-stopping moments. She obviously gets results, so I don’t mean to sound critical. But it just seems odd to have multiple horses who are so agreeable in dressage then need so much overt human management on XC. It’s one extreme to the other.

[Texarkana]

@Texarkana

I don’t mean to sound rude, but I think this is a given that everyone understands. Just as you say, eventing dressage is not dressage dressage. No one is saying she is a beautiful dressage rider; they’re asking why she does so well in that phase in eventing.

She consistently outperforms her peers in eventing dressage, generally landing at or near the top of the leader board. Then she consistently has successful XC runs that can be hard to watch as a spectator-- a lot of heavily-bitted horses, a lot of pulling/kicking, a lot heart-stopping moments. She obviously gets results, so I don’t mean to sound critical. But it just seems odd to have multiple horses who are so agreeable in dressage then need so much overt human management on XC.

[enjoytheride]

@Arlomine

I’ve seen her tests in person. She’s only “good” at dressage because she is being judges at event standards… It is not “good” DRESSAGE.
The horse is tense, tight and held together.
yes, I know that event horses are muscled and conditioned differently than straight dressage horses. No I don’t expect them to be as supple, loose and through as straight dressage horses.

its simply that she is NOT doing good dressage. She is very good at muscling a horse around, in all respects.

Did you mean to insult ML or all eventers in general?

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

@beowulf

My guess –
A. She has very good quality horses.
B. She prioritizes working on her dressage.
C. She has access to top quality (dressage) coaching.

There are only so many hours you can devote to schooling ringwork at the ULs, and the conditioning required is enormous and often competes directly with your available time to improve your dressage… A horse can only take so much work a day. I have never ridden at that level, and I never will – but I have been a groom/WS for riders actively competing at that level and have been involved in the conditioning schedules of those horses. Many devote specific days for specific sets and work, to get their horse in peak fitness and performance…

Having observed MLs horses over the years, I think it’s possible she is either not the person conditioning her horses (not uncommon for WSs to do it to free up a pro’s schedule for client horses), or she is prioritizing her dressage work over conditioning or XC – and it shows. It is a lot of work and saddle time, to get a horse fit enough for UL XC. Gallop sets are time consuming, and they can eat into a horse’s training/dressage/jumping schedule.

She consistently is putting in very good tests, I think she deserves those scores - but then you see her horse[s] are not in shape for the level, she does not seem as confident or strong XC, her stamina/strength visibly flags as the course goes on, horses are flagging half-way around the course, etc, and it seems to an outside observer like myself that certain preparations were not done for the level when it comes to the XC portion.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Looking at ML’s USEA and FEI results she has ONLY showed RF Scandalous at three day events since at least 2017. I suspect she doesn’t take the time to school and get comfortable at the speeds required for cross country.

From her ride yesterday on cross country she strikes me as someone who is scared. Before the double skinny’s on top of the mound I was surprised at how she smooth it looked, at least to start. Than it started to crumble and truly fell apart by the right hand corners. I think RF Scandalous is a strong horse and combine that with a scared rider that the speeds needed for cross country that gives us a rider riding the horse backward with a lot of gear in its mouth to get it to ride that way. Its a shame.

[Blugal]

Following up on the comment that the horse looked robotic in dressage. I don’t know this rider, not commenting on her. (ETA the following is about someone else and I am obviously still angry. So, perhaps an inappropriate place for this but I’ll leave it.)

I rode with someone who was successful, to a point, (on the Team but no great results) and her horses were exactly described as robotic. I experienced the training to get them this way. Start with extremely tight noseband, cranked over the poll strap as well as the cavesson and flash. The horses were never allowed an opinion. If they did, they were punished with harsh hands, teeth ripping, lunging with side reins between the front legs, or put in a stall with side reins on. There was often rearing and beating with the dressage whip.

After a while the horse just gives up. It’s not interested in being abused so it robotically does what it’s told. Those who didn’t give up were labelled rogues and given away to other homes.

On XC, they also went with cranked nosebands and a leverage bit. That’s because they weren’t actually soft in the mouth in dressage like you might have thought. They were just robitically submissive.

Their show jumping was often horrible because the rider in this case couldn’t force them to be adjustable and light and powerful at the same time. As they lifted their heads and necks to jump, the rider couldn’t rely on the “dressage training” any more. That person often jumped in a DeGogue at home so that when she ripped their teeth out they couldn’t raise their heads.

Needless to say, I’m so glad I have learned a better way and I will never aspire to be like anyone who is successful at a price like that.

[TMares]

@Blugal

Following up on the comment that the horse looked robotic in dressage. I don’t know this rider, not commenting on her.

I rode with someone who was successful, to a point, (on the Team but no great results) and her horses were exactly described as robotic. I experienced the training to get them this way. Start with extremely tight noseband, cranked over the poll strap as well as the cavesson and flash. The horses were never allowed an opinion. If they did, they were punished with harsh hands, teeth ripping, lunging with side reins between the front legs, or put in a stall with side reins on. There was often rearing and beating with the dressage whip.

After a while the horse just gives up. It’s not interested in being abused so it robotically does what it’s told. Those who didn’t give up were labelled rogues and given away to other homes.

On XC, they also went with cranked nosebands and a leverage bit. That’s because they weren’t actually soft in the mouth in dressage like you might have thought. They were just robitically submissive.

Their show jumping was often horrible because the rider in this case couldn’t force them to be adjustable and light and powerful at the same time. As they lifted their heads and necks to jump, the rider couldn’t rely on the “dressage training” any more. That person often jumped in a DeGogue at home so that when she ripped their teeth out they couldn’t raise their heads.

Needless to say, I’m so glad I have learned a better way and I will never aspire to be like anyone who is successful at a price like that.

agree. I rode for a little bit years ago with a woman who was very successful with an appaloosa mare that she successfully competed as a versatility horse. The mare could win all day long in HUS and WP, make it look good, too,m and then turn around and win in barrels, too. If they ran barrels in an arena that was open on the end (meaning you run out of the pen and actually stop your horse yourself vs. they close the gate behind you as you enter and the gate helps you bring the horse back down to a halt) she had to have folks outside of the arena to keep that area clear, because it was not a given that she could actually get her stopped or steer much- she COULD run her into a fence to stop her. Just a nightmare of a trainer. She bitted her up for the slow stuff but had to lighten up on her mouth to run barrels- just 2 steps from disaster all the way around.

[hldyrhrses]

" From her ride yesterday on cross country she strikes me as someone who is scared. "

I disagree. I think she learned loooong ago that making the time wins. The only way to go as fast as she does and not die at the jumps is to have a hell of a lot of breaks and not mess around with slowing down too early. Sometimes it doesn’t work for her and she has the bad jumps and may fall off. Then she pushes for as fast as she can and slams on the breaks again in front of the next jump.

Since she’s a UL show jumper too, I’m guessing she doesn’t train for XC as much as she should anymore and she’s rusty and it shows. Poor Scandalous gets dusted off for the big shows and is probably just as rusty. That horse is a saint!

[Larbear]

@kmwines

Were the corners numbered separately? How did she not get a 20 there for crossing her tracks?

Yeh I was wondering that too. I could see the first pull off but then the circle before going to the 2nd corner to me seemed like that should have been a 20 ppt.

[asterix]

Well, that was a super unpleasant ride. I just skipped to the end and watch Dani forward, everyone had a good go, well ridden, and ML just looked awful from the mounds on. Ugh.

[Sticky_Situation]

The first several single fences weren’t the smoothest ever, but they weren’t terrible. But every single combination was hairy.

ML seems to do best in situations where she can micromanage the horse… in dressage, she can keep her very tightly controlled and manage every step, and even in showjumping she can do the same thing to a large degree. But cross country requires more initiative from the horse and you can’t just keep her bottled up and control every step. So because she has to let the mare gallop on if she wants to try to make time, she gets long and flat and then tries to snatch her back right before the fences … and then since the mare is so used to being micromanaged to her fences rather than having the rider just set her up and go with her, she blows by her distances and sketchy things happen.

At least that’s my read on it.

[add_leg]

@beowulf

My guess –
A. She has very good quality horses.
B. She prioritizes working on her dressage.
C. She has access to top quality (dressage) coaching.

There are only so many hours you can devote to schooling ringwork at the ULs, and the conditioning required is enormous and often competes directly with your available time to improve your dressage… A horse can only take so much work a day. I have never ridden at that level, and I never will – but I have been a groom/WS for riders actively competing at that level and have been involved in the conditioning schedules of those horses. Many devote specific days for specific sets and work, to get their horse in peak fitness and performance…

Having observed MLs horses over the years, I think it’s possible she is either not the person conditioning her horses (not uncommon for WSs to do it to free up a pro’s schedule for client horses), or she is prioritizing her dressage work over conditioning or XC – and it shows. It is a lot of work and saddle time, to get a horse fit enough for UL XC. Gallop sets are time consuming, and they can eat into a horse’s training/dressage/jumping schedule.

She consistently is putting in very good tests, I think she deserves those scores - but then you see her horse[s] are not in shape for the level, she does not seem as confident or strong XC, her stamina/strength visibly flags as the course goes on, horses are flagging half-way around the course, etc, and it seems to an outside observer like myself that certain preparations were not done for the level when it comes to the XC portion.

Thank you for this explanation! It makes a lot of sense and helps answer a lot of my questions about the how.

[Willesdon]

XC riding is a skill in its own right and it takes a lot of time and a lot of miles in the saddle to develop the feel. Dressage training, in an arena, fits more neatly into a busy lifestyle.

[Divine_Comedy]

@Willesdon

XC riding is a skill in its own right and it takes a lot of time and a lot of miles in the saddle to develop the feel. Dressage training, in an arena, fits more neatly into a busy lifestyle.

Let’s not pretend ML doesn’t have enough XC experience. She has 132 FEI starts at eventing, 12 at 5L (previously CCI4) level. She’s a Category A rider. She has plenty of XC miles.

Just much fewer as of late, and I don’t think she ever learned how to let the horse think for itself. But she’s had plenty of mileage in which to learn that.

[Willesdon]

@Divine Comedy

Let’s not pretend ML doesn’t have enough XC experience. She has 132 FEI starts at eventing, 12 at 5L (previously CCI4) level. She’s a Category A rider. She has plenty of XC miles.

Just much fewer as of late, and I don’t think she ever learned how to let the horse think for itself. But she’s had plenty of mileage in which to learn that.

I was aiming at a more general point about xc v dressage riding rather than commenting on ML’s round. However, “She has plenty of miles … she has never learned how to let the horse think for itself”. That was my point. Being qualified to run at a level doesn’t mean you should and apparently ML can turn in a good dressage round but, as far as I can see, she has never got her head around xc riding. And that lack of skill is really ugly to watch.