How is ML so good at dressage ?

[TMares]

The test she rode this week was really lovely regardless of what you think about ML. Who placed second? Boyd? I need to go watch that test, too.

[Arlomine]

There is plenty of “bad dressage” being done in dressage shows.
Lots of horses held together with strong aids. That doesn’t make it right, and I didn’t imply that.Bad dressage is a dead-end wherever it happens.

There are some great examples of beautiful and harmonic dressage as well, both in dressage shows and In Eventing.
Ingrid Klimke comes to mind as the prime example of fantastic dressage that translations to also fantastic cross country. The two are not mutually exclusive.

One of the components of good dressage is that it does not deprive the horse of expression or power.
Overly-controlling/micro managing dressage could, I think, cirtainly contribute to weak cross country.

Citing bad riding elsewhere to excuse bad riding in another context is missing the point.

Yes, her tests are accurate. It helps her get her scores. I’ve watched ringside, and I stand by my observations about the horse being held together with overly strong aids, lack of swing in the back, and generally over-ridden. To me, the horse did not look happy, she looks resigned.

[IFG]

Is the mare sound after hitting those fences?

[nunyabusiness]

Yes, some movements are double coefficients.

[Benchmark]

The mare has very nice hind end movement, she does very nice changes, and she almost always halts square. Her frame is consistent throughout.

As mentioned, ML rides an accurate test and the movements themselves are usually very technically correct.

If you leave your personal opinions behind, t’s hard to watch her tests with the mare and find many reasons to take marks away.

[Madison]

@Divine Comedy

Let’s not pretend ML doesn’t have enough XC experience. She has 132 FEI starts at eventing, 12 at 5L (previously CCI4) level. She’s a Category A rider. She has plenty of XC miles.

Just much fewer as of late, and I don’t think she ever learned how to let the horse think for itself. But she’s had plenty of mileage in which to learn that.

I’ve always struggled with the idea of how someone could be a part-time upper level eventer and expect to have a solid partnership on XC - it seems to me that your point is well-taken, and that if ML really wants to make a go of it with this horse, she ought to be looking for a more consistent schedule to smooth out that XC trip. Her comments after the XC suggest she realized that after it didn’t go so well, but time will tell when we see what they do this spring.

[Denali6298]

@Benchmark

The mare has very nice hind end movement, she does very nice changes, and she almost always halts square. Her frame is consistent throughout.

As mentioned, ML rides an accurate test and the movements themselves are usually very technically correct.

If you leave your personal opinions behind, t’s hard to watch her tests with the mare and find many reasons to take marks away.

I don’t think anyone has done that. I think the OP is trying to understand how a person can lay down a Dressage test like that and be an absolute train wreck on x-country where more times than not result in people cringing.

[subk]

Eventing has always been about the contrast between what makes a good dressage horse compared to what makes a good cross country horse. The theory is that the better a horse’s natural inclination to dressage the worse its natural inclination to run cross county and visa versa. For example, a horse with a great ground covering, efficient gallop tends to not have the very best movement in the dressage ring. It is also said that great dressage horses tend to not show the initiative and independent thinking needed to be a great XC horse.

The art of eventing is finding a horse then improving the areas that are not its natural strengths to create a complete picture.

It used to be we all rode TBs who had innate endurance and natural abitlies on XC and somehow figured out how to get a dressage test out of them. With the move away from the long format, as well in changes to the weight of the dressage phase, we shifted the metric toward horses with better and better natural dressage skills who were less innately skilled around XC. There are quite a few modern Ky3DE winners with great dressage who galloped around XC by braille, but they found the minimum needed to get the job done.

There has always been a concern/theory that pushing the focus toward dressage would create more horses with less innate XC skills which would introduce more dangerous situations on the XC track.

So, to answer your question why is she so good at dressage I would tell you the starting place is she is selecting horses with very strong innate dressage abilities. RF Scandalous is mostly Holsteiner breeding with no blood close. This is not the prefer breeding profile of most UL horses today as there is still a desire for some blood up close–precisely to get some XC advantages for them. She has inside access to those types of breeding lines that produce strong dressage-able horses.

I think part of what you are seeing with her on XC is she is using her considerable skills as a jumper rider to make up for what her strong dressage-preferred bred horses lack on XC. The key here is that instead of teaching them the initiative they need for themselves they are taught to be obedient and rely on her for what they lack. Her horses go on XC only as well as she is riding that day. I don’t know of another UL rider in the world that trains this way. While it may work for her I think it is incredibly dangerous and as far as I’m concerned, so far, she’s been very lucky.

[RainWeasley]

@subk

Eventing has always been about the contrast between what makes a good dressage horse compared to what makes a good cross country horse. The theory is that the better a horse’s natural inclination to dressage the worse its natural inclination to run cross county and visa versa. For example, a horse with a great ground covering, efficient gallop tends to not have the very best movement in the dressage ring. It is also said that great dressage horses tend to not show the initiative and independent thinking needed to be a great XC horse.

The art of eventing is finding a horse then improving the areas that are not its natural strengths to create a complete picture.

It used to be we all rode TBs who had innate endurance and natural abitlies on XC and somehow figured out how to get a dressage test out of them. With the move away from the long format, as well in changes to the weight of the dressage phase, we shifted the metric toward horses with better and better natural dressage skills who were less innately skilled around XC. There are quite a few modern Ky3DE winners with great dressage who galloped around XC by braille, but they found the minimum needed to get the job done.

There has always been a concern/theory that pushing the focus toward dressage would create more horses with less innate XC skills which would introduce more dangerous situations on the XC track.

So, to answer your question why is she so good at dressage I would tell you the starting place is she is selecting horses with very strong innate dressage abilities. RF Scandalous is mostly Holsteiner breeding with no blood close. This is not the prefer breeding profile of most UL horses today as there is still a desire for some blood up close–precisely to get some XC advantages for them. She has inside access to those types of breeding lines that produce strong dressage-able horses.

I think part of what you are seeing with her on XC is she is using her considerable skills as a jumper rider to make up for what her strong dressage-preferred bred horses lack on XC. The key here is that instead of teaching them the initiative they need for themselves they are taught to be obedient and rely on her for what they lack. Her horses go on XC only as well as she is riding that day. I don’t know of another UL rider in the world that trains this way. While it may work for her I think it is incredibly dangerous and as far as I’m concerned, so far, she’s been very lucky.

Well said.

[2LaZ2race]

Thank you for everyone who posted thoughtful replies. It’s very enlightening. I really don’t have a bias against ML, it’s just crazy to me how she seems to pop up out of nowhere every now and then and just kill at these upper level competitions then seemingly disappear again. (I know she works very hard and rides even when I don’t see her, but you know what I mean).

I feel like as a spectator i’d like to watch more closely about the accuracy of the tests being ridden. I know that’s a big deal in the lower levels, same as which movements have coefficients.

Thanks again !

[Benchmark]

@Denali6298

I don’t think anyone has done that. I think the OP is trying to understand how a person can lay down a Dressage test like that and be an absolute train wreck on x-country where more times than not result in people cringing.

Not intended as a defensive post for ML, just a direct, matter of fact response to the OP’s original question which specifically asked about her ability to perform in the dressage.

[Puffergrrl]

@Madison

I’ve always struggled with the idea of how someone could be a part-time upper level eventer and expect to have a solid partnership on XC - it seems to me that your point is well-taken, and that if ML really wants to make a go of it with this horse, she ought to be looking for a more consistent schedule to smooth out that XC trip.

You all had better check out where your god has been all winter…'cause Michael Jung’s been dabbling in the dark arts and travelling the European indoor circuit with his showjumpers. According to your logic, his XC will now turn to crap.

You learn from watching great showjumping rounds that it isn’t about speed, it’s about efficiency. The smoother and tighter the turns, the less interrupted the canter rhythm, the fewer pulls you take, the faster your time will be. ML did a great job of this until the distance didn’t come up the way she wanted on the hill. That impacted the related distance right after and then she was still struggling to get organized and back on pace the fence after that. IMHO, the 3rd miss probably didn’t need to happen, but once she missed the 1st, the 2nd was bound pretty inevitable.

Following that, the horse took over, grabbed the bridle hard, and started to run off with her some, which she was actually able to get distances out of pretty well for the rest of the course. However, she couldn’t turn that freight train when she tried. She was also clearly struggling to slow the horse down at all and her arms were about ready to fall off.

Maybe if everyone on these boards, etc. didn’t insist on tearing her a new a*shole for using the bit and bridle she feels works best for her horse, she wouldn’t use a softer one and have “haul on her horse’s face”, which you of course hate too. Hmmm? (Just speculating, but not impossible).

[Jealoushe]

@Puffergrrl

You all had better check out where your god has been all winter…'cause Michael Jung’s been dabbling in the dark arts and travelling the European indoor circuit with his showjumpers. According to your logic, his XC will now turn to crap.

You learn from watching great showjumping rounds that it isn’t about speed, it’s about efficiency. The smoother and tighter the turns, the less interrupted the canter rhythm, the fewer pulls you take, the faster your time will be. ML did a great job of this until the distance didn’t come up the way she wanted on the hill. That impacted the related distance right after and then she was still struggling to get organized and back on pace the fence after that. IMHO, the 3rd miss probably didn’t need to happen, but once she missed the 1st, the 2nd was bound pretty inevitable.

Following that, the horse took over, grabbed the bridle hard, and started to run off with her some, which she was actually able to get distances out of pretty well for the rest of the course. However, she couldn’t turn that freight train when she tried. She was also clearly struggling to slow the horse down at all and her arms were about ready to fall off.

Maybe if everyone on these boards, etc. didn’t insist on tearing her a new a*shole for using the bit and bridle she feels works best for her horse, she wouldn’t use a softer one and have “haul on her horse’s face”, which you of course hate too. Hmmm? (Just speculating, but not impossible).

US ALL are aware that MJ showjumps He also does it in the same way he rides xc, with soft, forward and forgiving riding

QFP

Also, I disagree. There was no “fewer pulls you take” on this ride. It was pull pull pull rip and ride…from the get go’.

[Denali6298]

Did that post actually happen? I get some horses might (who am I to question) need a hardware store in their mouth but when it’s routine? And yes MJ shows jumpers. He also shows dressage. We think he’s amazing because he gives a great ride no matter the discipline.

[Puffergrrl]

@Jealoushe

US ALL are aware that MJ showjumps He also does it in the same way he rides xc, with soft, forward and forgiving riding

QFP

Also, I disagree. There was no “fewer pulls you take” on this ride. It was pull pull pull rip and ride…from the get go’.

WELL SOME OF US consider sitting back early in the air and slipping the reins less of a soft, forward, and forgiving ride and more of a great way to plant your horse’s butt squarely on the back bar of a 1.50m oxer or get yourself stuck in a triple combination. But worship false idols if you must. I will give it to him…he’s gotten a LOT better this year. I believe he’s been working with Ludgar Beerbaum or Marcus Ehning they’ve been giving him some extra horses to ride & show.

And actually, I don’t think I saw ML pull at all until she saw no distance coming up out of stride on the hill. The horse was allowed to freely canter forward and turns were asked for with an opening rein. I would have compared her round to that of the lady earlier-on with all the pink until the hill. But you dislike her, so you see something you don’t like.

[Denali6298]

@Puffergrrl

WELL SOME OF US consider sitting back early in the air and slipping the reins less of a soft, forward, and forgiving ride and more of a great way to plant your horse’s butt squarely on the back bar of a 1.50m oxer or get yourself stuck in a triple combination. But worship false idols if you must. I will give it to him…he’s gotten a LOT better this year. I believe he’s been working with Ludgar Beerbaum or Marcus Ehning they’ve been giving him some extra horses to ride & show.

And actually, I don’t think I saw ML pull at all until she saw no distance coming up out of stride on the hill. The horse was allowed to freely canter forward and turns were asked for with an opening rein. I would have compared her round to that of the lady earlier-on with all the pink until the hill. But you dislike her, so you see something you don’t like.

Um… when are triple combinations on a X-Country course? So… not sure what your point is? Yes MJ is infinitely better than ML in eventing. Not a false idol just fact. What’s your hang up?

[tbchick84]

@Puffergrrl

And actually, I don’t think I saw ML pull at all until she saw no distance coming up out of stride on the hill. The horse was allowed to freely canter forward and turns were asked for with an opening rein. I would have compared her round to that of the lady earlier-on with all the pink until the hill. But you dislike her, so you see something you don’t like.

You must have watched a different round than I did.

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

Do we know who ML trains with these days? I know she used to train with Karen O’Connor and dear ole Packy (ain’t that a juxtaposition :sigh:). She is based out of Frederick, MD but I haven’t heard about who she’d be training with or seen her trailers out and about.

[Jealoushe]

@Puffergrrl

WELL SOME OF US consider sitting back early in the air and slipping the reins less of a soft, forward, and forgiving ride and more of a great way to plant your horse’s butt squarely on the back bar of a 1.50m oxer or get yourself stuck in a triple combination. But worship false idols if you must. I will give it to him…he’s gotten a LOT better this year. I believe he’s been working with Ludgar Beerbaum or Marcus Ehning they’ve been giving him some extra horses to ride & show.

And actually, I don’t think I saw ML pull at all until she saw no distance coming up out of stride on the hill. The horse was allowed to freely canter forward and turns were asked for with an opening rein. I would have compared her round to that of the lady earlier-on with all the pink until the hill. But you dislike her, so you see something you don’t like.

False Idol? :lol:

Michael Jung:
Most FEI wins in a season:
2019 he was third
13 - 2009, 2014, 2015
12 - 2012
11 -2013

Olympic (Double) Champ
World Champ(at the same time as Olympic)
Multiple European Champion
Mulitple 5 star wins

Down to earth and the nicest guy ever, grooms his own horse at 5*.

This man is a real idol.

NOTHING, ML would know anything about. At all.

[asterix]

“She saw no distance coming up out of stride on the hill” - umm, no. Do you know how to ride xc? She didn’t see a distance because she came up the mound with no engine. If you listen to the live commentary from her own coach you will hear…a moment of silence, and then “well, she came up with no power, and we’ve been saying all along you need a motor up that mound.” That was a mistake that many lowly amateurs could see coming, and the round was a train wreck after that.
as to why so many of us are so quick to jump on her about hardware? There are multiple photos of her on course with multiple horses with blood on their mouths. If you knew anything about eventing at the international level you would understand how unconvincing it is to compare Michael Jung with ML.