How is this legal? 4 y/o showing 4th level

[sparkygrace]

@sascha

Some horses are very precocious and good trainers allow that to a certain degree.

Yes! I have an old training video with Isabel Werth. (I know, controversial.) She is doing clean changes on a four year-old and the horse looks like a third level horse. As I mentioned upthread, I attended a young horse symposium a few years ago. The horses were all three and four, ridden by pros. They were all warmbloods and looked way more advanced in training than one would guess because of their age. Would these people show them at third or fourth level? No. Would being ridden that way enhance their sale potential? Probably yes.

Long ago, I owned a Lipizzan cross. I bought him as an unstarted four year-old. Three months after I started him, we showed training level and won, beating a nice WB stallion. Some horses are very precocious.

[Scribbler]

I’d add that the things that horses do in the true FEI Young Horse tests at 4 are more advanced than what you do in training or first.

[blue_heron]

Unfortunately or not so unfortunately depending on who you’re asking, most of the judges I’ve scribed for and discussed this exact thing with have said that if someone gets from Point A to Point B without blatant misbehavior from the horse, they don’t give less than a 4-5 lest people complain about unfair judging and judges won’t be hired back. The number of times I heard this summer, “Well, that was pretty awful… five.”

[K_VanOlst]

I did finally get more than a generic response from USEF -
“We are aware of the situation, and it has been properly submitted as a rule violation through our Dressage Department. We will be investigating the situation and finding the appropriate resolution.”

[hoopoe]

these issues take time to investigate and hand down penalty. The rider owner trainer are on the hook, but the show may be as well

the trainers removing the 4th level reference may be a scramble to hide evidence. Screen shots as evidence is permitted and is the basis of a lot of Ammy rule evaluations

Time will tell

[theresak]

@enjoytheride

So I can enter a 4th level test on a good moving horse, be accurate in my figures, and hit the 60s? Without ever needing to learn about collection because I can’t get less than a 5? Despite having zero collection at a level that’s all about collection?

Seems a bit unfair for people who get stuck for years at 2nd or 3rd because their horses are struggling with collection.

Most people are stuck at 2nd and 3rd because they don’t ride enough to get themselves and their horse strong enough to make it through a more difficult test, have a hard time sitting the trot, or can’t get clean changes.

A trainer who knows how to put changes on and train the lateral work can do that pretty quickly on a trainable horse with decent gaits. A 4 year old is not nearly strong enough for collection but if the horse is not huge and the rider is strong, they could hold things together to get through the movements.

At the first test of a level, the expectations are generally lower. If she had shown 4-3, the lack of collection would have hurt the score. Honestly, I didn’t really have good collection with my horse until PSG and managed to get decent scores.

[Hilary]

I would not have guessed he was four from that video - although at this point in the year he’s nearly 5 if he has an early in the year actual birthday. He’s lovely - he’s quiet and obedient. he’s also been for sale since May. Maybe he’s not really bold enough to be an eventer because someone would have scooped him up with those dressage scores even with that price.

I hope he finds his person and they have a long career together.

[Cowgirl]

Pass. My 4 year old wb is barely under saddle and that is intentional. While maybe pleasant and well ridden, I cannot even imagine the amount of riding it took to get a four year old to this level. Nope.

[Lunabear1988]

To be fair, I do feel like there is a difference in a young warmblood and a TB. But agree with the thought overall.

[Long_Time_Lurker]

Horses aren’t mature enough to race at 2 either, but this horse seems to have done both. Probably had an exercise rider on fall of yearling year to get ready to race at 2.

[Angela_Freda]

@Long_Time_Lurker

Horses aren’t mature enough to race at 2 either, but this horse seems to have done both. Probably had an exercise rider on fall of yearling year to get ready to race at 2

If you start the clock sooner, does it run out sooner?

[BigMama1]

Meh, I know some horses that aren’t ready to start under saddle work until 4. I know other horses that are happily working at a solid First Level by age 4. This one looks happy enough and is certainly not being pushed in a way that looks inappropriate. Well, it’s inappropriate for Fourth Level but not inappropriate for his age.

[beowulf]

This horse did not race. From what I can tell from my limited sleuthing, he didn’t even train.

[Angela_Freda]

@beowulf

This horse did not race. From what I can tell from my limited sleuthing, he didn’t even train

??? I don’t understand, how would you sleuths that out? That he didn’t train?

[sascha]

Depends on the horse. My giant one back in the day was lightly backed at 2 because he badly needed a job. By 4 he was doing pretty much everything in a 4th level test in a 1st level frame. Due to stringhalt he ended up in a jumping career and retired sound (except for the stringhalt of course) and I mean sound with clean rads at 15 because I was done leasing him out and wanted him back to enjoy myself for hacking.

Otoh, my current horse is practically antique now and although piaffe is a no-brainer, struggles with changes and no way would she have had the brain or physical strength (longish weak back) to do that.

Otooh, another gelding I trained was easy peasy, loved his work and the tricks and was doing really good 4th level + (2 tempis and respectable full pirouettes) by 6. Unfortunately he came to me with a known hock issue and I sent him home at about 8 when that started to become an issue. He carried on toting his ammy owner into his 20s, but would not have lasted long doing real work above 3rd level. Shame because that horse had one of the best brains on the planet.

It’s very, very dependent on the horse.

[beowulf]

He isn’t registered with JC. We know his parents, and neither have him listed as an offspring. Which means he likely didn’t make it to training, never got a gate card, and would have no published workouts. It’s been years but I’m fairly certain the horse needs to be registered to even get a gate card.

There’s a lot of reasons this might happen. Sometimes the stud fee isn’t paid so the horse can’t be registered and therefore will never race. Sometimes they have early issues that prohibit pushing them to race, like apophysitis, sometimes their connections just don’t want to race them, etc.

[Willesdon]

@Jealoushe Fortunately dressage on TBs is becoming a thing in the UK. The charity ‘Retraining of Racehorses’ (ROR) has a terrific competition schedule and many awards, such that “eligible for ROR” is a positive selling point often to be seen in horse ads. TBs are doing well enough in pure dressage too.

[Highflyer1]

If you look him up on equibase by dam/ year of birth, he was registered but not named, and went through a 2 year old in training sale in Ocala.

[Jealoushe]

I’ve seen that! I’m hoping to keep spreading the word, just getting out there and showing people what they can do.

[beowulf]

Thank you! I knew someone could sleuth better than me.

Now I feel invested in this horse… Whoever buys him needs to send us updates, k?

Wish I had an extra 40k lying around!!