may have failed “stating gate schooling”, my son worked TBs as an exercise rider and if a horse could not handle the starting gate it was washed out of the training
3 Likes
USEF reports that competition management made them aware of this situation. What they plan to do about it, I can’t answer. But they do know.
22 Likes
I think one of the issues people commonly have with judging is that some judges fail to use the lower end of the scale. They give 4s and even 5s to what others may view as worthy of a 3 or less. I think some dont want to be seen as the mean judge who wont get asked back. This is compounded when they dont use the top of the scale much either (the 4 5 6 judge) and the scores are tightly bunched.
I recall the big outcry over a ride that was livestreamed (and I happened to watch). It was a mess and Axel Steiner commented that it was surely “insufficient” and went notably silent when the score was above that. Looking at the scores later, it appeared to me that the issues were not penalized enough and the collectives were overly generous. (In her next ride she was abusive and was eliminated, but not until the ride was complete. Poor horse)
9 Likes
Did you watch the video? To my eye that horse looks the opposite of one deserving pity. He is calm, forward, being ridden tactfully, and not being asked to work harder than is age appropriate. He’s basically a Training/1st Level horse with fun tricks. He likely showed an aptitude and the trainer wisely allowed him to do those tricks (they’re much harder to ‘reinstall’ if they get quashed when a horse offers them “too soon” - ask me how I know 
) BUT, foolishly showed him above the level he was entitled to show at.
However, that foolishness on behalf of the trainer may land him in the perfect forever home. He’s going to appeal to ammies. He appears trainable. The perfect combination of trainer/ammy owner could have fun and GRADUALLY bring him up the levels properly. I bet this horse would be absolutely perfect for an ammy owner with dreams of getting to PSG one day and a trainer who understands how to help that ammy develop him further while maintaining the fun tricks.
I would have loved to have a horse like this for a number of clients back in the day when I taught earnestly. Worth his weight in gold for being able to let the owner play with the tricks while learning how to bring him along to true collection.
31 Likes
Yes to all of this!
I have to chime in about this too. I see this on almost EVERY ad looking for a nice ammie friendly dressage mount. I always think, it’s too bad they have that “No TBS” there because if I was selling, they would be missing out on the perfect horse.
She’s 15.2, wide barreled, 10 years old, showing 2nd level, and won almost every class she entered this year. Her average scores at National level were 68%+. She gets 7 & 8s on her gaits. She was Regional and Provincial Champion 2nd Level at Silver level in Ontario. She is schooling 3rd with ease, FEI trainers have said she will do the GP no problem. This is with me training her and I am just learning myself. She is fun and easy, can hack out alone or in a group. Jumps, trailers, ties, etc. Not spooky. To me, she is an amateurs dream, especially for a smaller person who wanted to have fun. She literally never acts up at shows or at home.
At shows people ask, what’s her breeding? I say “Vibank” and giggle. “Oh Vibank…haven’t heard of him, is he Dutch?” No no, he’s a Kentucky Warmblood… LOL
Now if she was for sale, she would be the perfect horse for so many AAs but, and its a big but, shes a TB. So many wouldn’t even come see her. What a loss for them!
I would love to train more TBs for dresage to sell onto ammies…but they just don’t want them 
17 Likes
That’s exactly what I was expecting and I’m glad I watched the video to see otherwise.
3 Likes
Hey since you know which records to check out, how were the other scores in the class this horse was in? In line?
Here’s the 4th level test directive:
To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics,
and has developed sufficient suppleness, impulsion and
throughness to perform the Fourth Level tests which have
a medium degree of difficulty. The horse remains reliably
on the bit, showing a clear uphill balance and lightness
as a result of improved engagement and collection. The
movements are performed with greater straightness,
energy and cadence than at Third Level.
Here’s what the test’s goals are to introduce:
Collected walk; very collected canter; walk pirouettes;
multiple flying changes on diagonal.
My guess is the score reflects the harmony and correct basics displayed in this test. Bold is mine. I don’t see true 4th level movements here but I do see the bold. I’m trying to frame this in a way that isn’t inherently negative: that level of harmony and fluidity is remarkable in any horse and not a given no matter the level the horse shows. I believe the judge was trying to reward that.
6 Likes
She was the lowest score in both classes.
I didn’t know very many names in the classes, but the scores from some of the classes I spot checked seemed a bit high for a national show (like half a point high). Based on my non-scientific evaluation from many years of show management and scribing.
As I said before, I don’t know this judge at all - never even heard the name before. She just might be one that tends to score a half point higher than most - which would bring the horse in question up from a high 50s to a low 60s.
1 Like
Oh I don’t doubt where he got the scores from for his basic gait quality, he’s a lovely horse, but he doesn’t belong in a 4th level test and the rest of the scores should reflect that. I’d like to see the collective marks.
This part he doesn’t show at all “showing a clear uphill balance and lightness
as a result of improved engagement and collection. The
movements are performed with greater straightness,
energy and cadence than at Third Level.”
It might be sour grapes, but to me it reminds me that a off breed without the desirable dressage way of moving will always be starting from behind even if they have the geometry and the collection.
8 Likes
Where did you get this information? I did finally get a generic “thank you for your report” but that’s it.
1 Like
yes and if it was an error free test with say a nice free walk that can really boost your scores or if he does a clean change.
I’m going to guess they will nullify the scores and that is it.
3 Likes
Maybe them reaching out was the reason for the ad change lol
2 Likes
Yes, although you may end up in a situation like this one where you are “outed.” And yes, it is unfair, but it’s best to focus on your own goals. I say this as an adult amateur who has been happy to stay in the lower levels because my forte is starting young or inexperienced horses and making them solid second level mounts, schooling third. I have ridden upper level horses that were not mine, but fate, lameness, and temperament issues in my own horses kept me back.
1 Like
Which is certainly true except for the part on submission - the submission is not just about going around quietly. It is also about correctly carrying themselves appropriate to the level being shown. Lightness, ease, & uphill tendencies are words included in definition of submission. I’ve never seen a judge give a 5/6 mover an 8 on submission - not saying it’s never happened, but I’ve never seen it in rides/shows I’ve had the opportunity to see the detailed score.
Everything is supposed to be tied back to the level at which the horse is being shown. What may get you a 7 or 8 on submission at 1st level is not the same as what would get you a 7 or 8 at 4th level, which I’m sure you’re aware, but maybe others don’t understand.
6 Likes
I did watch the video. I see a horse who has been pushed. Yes, he is quiet and nicely workmanlike. A training ride and a test ride are 2 different rides. This has horse has NOT been brought along gradually. My hope for this horse is to find a home that will focus on the basics not continue him on his current training trajectory.
7 Likes
All good points. Again, it comes back to the judge and what she/he determines. What did this particular judge see that caused her to gives sixes and some sevens in this test? I’m not afraid to admit I once had a comment on a test about my horse not being ready for the level I was showing. It was not about movement or collection, but more about his tendency to spook and get very disobedient. Tempi changes at second level are a no-no. 
1 Like
What part of that video shows a horse that has been pushed? That he is going sort of sideways and doing flying changes? Because it sure as heck isn’t his collection! lol
From that one video, it is impossible to say that anything untoward has ever gone on in a training ride. Some horses are very precocious and good trainers allow that to a certain degree. Excellent trainers don’t generally show that off in public until the horse is truly at the level of the tricks the horse has offered, but others will to try to reach a market appropriate to the horse’s future abilities.
Now, if the horse showed a whole lot of tension, tail wringing, a shortened frame, etc., the conclusion could be different, but it doesn’t. It hums along in an age-appropriate frame throwing in a few tricks here and there without missing a beat - even makes a mistake (the wrong lead canter) and doesn’t get fussed about it.
4 Likes
I’m surprised that she didn’t show him in the FEI for 4 year olds test. That would have been age appropriate, legal, and she would have received much higher marks. It would have been a better selling point too, IMHO. I’d snap him up in a heartbeat, but then I have a soft spot for Tbs. I think succeeding in FEI for 4 year olds would make the price more appropriate, regardless of breed. Why risk breaking the rules? Does not speak well for her as a professional.
37 Likes
