How is this legal? 4 y/o showing 4th level

[rulex]

@beowulf

I wonder if he is just a TB, not an OTTB. The distinction seems pedantic but its important.

To me as a buyer that’s a huge difference. I’d be way more interested in a TB dressage prospect than an OTTB.

[K_VanOlst]

@ClassyJumper

honestly don’t understand why you are coming so hard for a sweet, well cared for looking horse and a quiet, kind, and talented looking rider.

It has nothing to do with the horse and everything to do with a trainer flagrantly violating horse welfare rules. There is a reason the USEF has instituted age minimums for tests of this level. It’s not appropriate to ask a 4 year old to be doing it, regardless of breed. I’m baffled that so many people are missing this very clear point. The rule is quoted in my OP.

[ClassyJumper]

Then report it and move on. All the screenshots and posting about it is tacky AF.

[K_VanOlst]

I did report it, as have others who have seen it. If you don’t like it, scroll on by. No one is forcing you to come to this public bulletin board and read the posts.

[Angela_Freda]

@enjoytheride

but as a 4yo not really showing any collection at all, should he even be getting a 61%?

I have the same question

[Angela_Freda]

@ClassyJumper

Then report it and move on. All the screenshots and posting about it is tacky AF

Not at all.
It would be predictable that the seller might delete pertinent details, so screenshots are important before reporting.
It’s certainly no more tacky than advertising the horse in a way that you quickly dirty delete later.

[sparkygrace]

Believe me, it’s not uncommon to see horses showing 3rd/4th that don’t show true collection. They are mostly ridden by adult amateurs who think going slower is collection. That’s why so many struggle to get the scores for their medals, as they have a hard time breaking 60% because they lack true collection. It doesn’t mean they don’t work hard, but achieving true collection can be difficult.

[K_VanOlst]

@Angela_Freda

It’s certainly no more tacky than advertising the horse in a way that you quickly dirty delete later.

Definitely behavior I’m not surprised to see by someone who also has no qualms about breaking the very clear rules to start with trying to make a quick buck along with the deleting of multiple comments questioning the age/level being shown.

[Angela_Freda]

But this horse in this test did break 60%,… Hence the question:

@enjoytheride

but as a 4yo not really showing any collection at all, should he even be getting a 61%?

[Mersidoats]

Cute horse. When I saw this post, I immediately thought it was this ad. And I was right. I looked at the video when the ad first popped up. I saw no real collection, so I dismissed her claims, but he seems like a sweet horse who tries really hard. I would not pay $45k for him, but maybe $20kish, if he had a good PPE. He’s chunky, so he gives off WB vibes.

I had no idea about the age rule, but every four year old I’ve ever sat on struggled with steering at the canter, much less sequential changes.

[Omnia]

@beowulf

I agree with you. I wonder if he is just a TB, not an OTTB. The distinction seems pedantic but it’s important. With his age and lack of registration with JC, I bet he never even made it into training. Which explains why he has progressed so quickly in a dressage home.

Did a little digging because I was curious. He arrived at a different trainer’s in October 2020 and looks like she got him from Laurel Park. Didn’t race for sure, but he may have trained a bit?

I would love to love to see his dam and what she is up to.

[BigMama1]

@sascha

That horse is going to make some ammy a very happy owner and probably with time will actually come to be able to do the movements in a collected/extended fashion once he has an idea about sitting and has had time to build up the muscle.

Yup. I’m not condoning the owner trying to show him at Fourth against the rules, but I was expecting to see a Maestro type of Fourth Level test. Though not really meeting the requirements of the level, this looked like a happy horse, well trained and well ridden for his age and background. If I were in the market I’d be scheduling a test ride and vetting ASAP.

[sparkygrace]

Not by much. He may have picked up points for accuracy and a clean test while being marked down for lack of collection. It also depends on what the judge uses as their “base” score. Some start at five and go up or down; more generous judges start with a six.

[enjoytheride]

But this horse showing not even enough collection for 1st level scored above 60 at 4th level, therefore possibly earning someone points toward a medal.

While amateurs on off breeds showing actual collection but not gait “quality” don’t break 60.

He’s a nice young horse with good gaits. But the rest?

[skydy]

@BigMama1

@sascha

That horse is going to make some ammy a very happy owner and probably with time will actually come to be able to do the movements in a collected/extended fashion once he has an idea about sitting and has had time to build up the muscle.

Yup. I’m not condoning the owner trying to show him at Fourth against the rules, but I was expecting to see a Maestro type of Fourth Level test. Though not really meeting the requirements of the level, this looked like a happy horse, well trained and well ridden for his age and background. If I were in the market I’d be scheduling a test ride and vetting ASAP.

I’m surprised that you were expecting a Peronace sort of disaster. There really are very few people who are quite as delusional as he was about the level their horse should be shown.

The OP made clear that the rider was either unaware of USEF rules regarding 4 year old horses, or that they intentionally ignored them. Either scenario is unacceptable.

[sparkygrace]

It really depends on the judge. Maybe the horse showed a bit of collection in some movements. A great clinician I worked with helped people with less than great movers improve their scores by being dead accurate. For example, you can perform a perfect shoulder-in but lack collection. A generous judge may give you a six. Or, your halts are square and perfect. You could get a seven. The rider may have scored an eight. The horse gets an eight on submission, but a five on gaits due to lack of collection.

So, you can lose a point in most movements due to lack of collection, but pick them up in other ways. I’m not in any way defending the choice of this rider, only passing what I’ve learned from years of scribing and attending judge’s forums. Also attended a young horse symposium and saw three and four year olds in a third level frame.

[BigMama1]

@skydy

I’m surprised that you were expecting a Peronace sort of disaster. There really are very few people who are quite as delusional as he was about the level their horse should be shown.

The OP made clear that the rider was either unaware of USEF rules regarding 4 year old horses, or that they intentionally ignored them. Either scenario is unacceptable.

When I hear 4yo and Fourth Level in the same sentence, I’m expecting a pretty epic train wreck. Was pleasantly surprised to see it was nothing of the sort. But agree the rule breaking, whether intentional or not, is unacceptable.

[Angela_Freda]

That’s Helpful info, thanks.

[enjoytheride]

So I can enter a 4th level test on a good moving horse, be accurate in my figures, and hit the 60s? Without ever needing to learn about collection because I can’t get less than a 5? Despite having zero collection at a level that’s all about collection?

Seems a bit unfair for people who get stuck for years at 2nd or 3rd because their horses are struggling with collection.

[BigMama1]

I guess that depends entirely on the judge