How long to grow heels?

[BlueDrifter]

While we were trouble-shooting my guy’s tripping/lameness issues, we decided to try pads “just in case.” Farrier agreed it would help achieve correct angles faster. Farrier got him sound.

He has great feet in terms of size/shape/hardness. He never had underrun heels, but had been trimmed with a longer toe until the current farrier. I was hoping we could get out of pads once his heels grew in, but a year later and farrier says it can’t happen yet, and she would love to not have to use pads, but his angles aren’t there.

Does it really take over a year to grow heel? Is there a way to migrate away from pads easily?

[JB]

Got pictures?

A whole front foot grows in roughly 9 months, and of course individuals may vary. Hinds take a bit less time. The farther back you go, the faster material turns over as there is less foot as you go from toe to heel.

Way too many farriers see “low” heels and think they need to be left alone in order to gain height. But if those heels are underrun, they will never/rarely resolve on their own, especially if there are wedge pads being used.

Are the pads just flat, or wedge?

Pictures will help the most. If the toe is not being properly addressed, the heels aren’t going to resolve.

[Guilherme]

The heel, and toe, should be encouraged to achieve anatomical correctness for that horse and job it does. While numbers for length and angles and the like might be derived from observation they are observations, not necessarily goals for any one horse.

Use of devices to help the hoof “reform” itself to that anatomical goal would a Good Thing. If the horn quality is such that it needs artificial devices to help maintain a correct form then that’s OK, too.

The put a shoe on it, if required, to protect the whole thing.

G.

[kande04]

IMO, it’s not about growing heels, because what it’s about (or should be about) is developing stronger heels, and more protection isn’t going to help with that. What needs to happen is for the frog and digital cushion to get enough stimulation so that they build both bulk and density, and when that happens the entire hoof will change shape. The back of the hoof will widen, the sole will cup, and the toes will come back.

The problem with shoes and pads is that they can mimic healthy hoof development in some ways, but can’t make it happen. In fact, they do just the opposite by protecting the hoof from the stimulation it needs to develop.

Shoes can help with some issues short term, but mostly they just interfere with healthy hoof development.

[findeight]

Are you SURE those angles are not related to conformational issues? Pictures would be invaluable here.

Have a bit of concern it’s been a year. If it was just the way the hoof was trimmed, as JB pointed out and from my own experience, at a year, that hoof has regrown itself enough to show changes if it’s trimming related . But if its skeletal angles, trimming won’t help, could hurt. “Corrective” trimming/shoeing is a misnomer, you trim to best suit the hoof and underlying skeletal angles you have.

Try to post a link to some pics standing on hard, level ground clearly showing the knee, cannon, pastern and hoof from both sides and from the front with the horse standing square. Cell phone shots are fine if there’s enough light.

Over the years have had a few that came with low heels and long toes. After three trim cycles, the start of change was easily seen with just a 5 week schedule of proper trimming and regular shoes plus a double dose of good hoof supplement to speed growth. I don’t like pads so didn’t use them. Didn’t need them except on one and went with just rim pads. None were conformationally related. I do avoid excessively long, sloping pastern angles. YMMV

[BlueDrifter]

Thanks all, I will get photos tomorrow, and I know I have shod xrays that I will look for. I even have an MRI, but not sure I can figure out those views.

You are reconfirming my thoughts that pads – and these are wedges – may improve angles, but don’t necessarily help the hoof to rebalance to those new angles. (I thought you used wedges and then each trimming you took a little less of heel and used a smaller wedge until you were in a flat pad and then you could just stop, but doesn’t seem to be the case)

However, he was sound for nearly a year with the wedge pads, but in June he went off and it’s been iffy since. Prostride and Osphos didn’t have any effect; his MRI showed nothing remarkable, just a bunch of niggly 14 yo stuff that the vet didn’t think would cause clinical lameness – but there was inflammation. A bursa shot helped, but only lasted a month or so. I am using equioxx now, and thinking this may be chronic, something we can’t see on films, and maybe it is time to start over with plain shoeing.

[JB]

@BlueDrifter

You are reconfirming my thoughts that pads – and these are wedges – may improve angles, but don’t necessarily help the hoof to rebalance to those new angles.

They do help in the context of helping properly align the hoof-pastern angle, so that the horse walks more correctly and loads the foot more correctly. But no, they are not THE fix, because the trim is ultimately what has to be fixed

(I thought you used wedges and then each trimming you took a little less of heel and used a smaller wedge until you were in a flat pad and then you could just stop, but doesn’t seem to be the case)

You don’t take less (or more) heel, you trim then appropriately. For underrun heels that are also crushed, they still have to be rasped back where they belong, as best they can be, and the toes have to put where they belong, with a shoe set back/rolled appropriately if the trim alone can’t bring the breakover where it belongs. It’s the whole combination which starts allowing heels to grow at the proper angle

However, he was sound for nearly a year with the wedge pads, but in June he went off and it’s been iffy since. Prostride and Osphos didn’t have any effect; his MRI showed nothing remarkable, just a bunch of niggly 14 yo stuff that the vet didn’t think would cause clinical lameness – but there was inflammation. A bursa shot helped, but only lasted a month or so. I am using equioxx now, and thinking this may be chronic, something we can’t see on films, and maybe it is time to start over with plain shoeing.

A year is more than enough time to have fixed this, IF the only issue is the trimming. If there are body issues which are causing him to load his feet improperly, or he’s not moving enough, then that’s a different story.

[Sfbayequine]

I have a horse with nightmare low heel long toe issues. Some is confirmation and some was trimming. Did the pad and wedge route. Ended up with a suspensory tear. Could never ever get her sound in the following 8 months.

I brought her home, got a new farrier and vet. When the team came out she was probably a 3/4 lame in front. X-rays showed massively negative Palmer angle, but ok sole depth, which was surprising. I couldn’t take her barefoot without causing a ton of other issues. Ended up putting her into epona shoes and the farrier used the glue to build up the shoe like a wedge. We shod every 4 weeks with new x-rays for each trim and set for about 5 rounds. We used casts over the eponas before we could use nails.

As time went by, it was amazing to see the hoof remodel because it had more flex and all the apparatus were able to work, weight, and pump blood. As time went on the amount of glue wedge reduced and is minimal now. She is sound now… well sound for her which is serviceably sound with a .5/1 lameness she works out of in about 15 minutes of a long walk and canter set.

palmer angles are spot on, she has heels, great sole depth. I x-ray every 6 months just to make sure we are staying the course. For her, she is going to stay in eponas because no matter what we can’t keep her sound with metal shoes. This horse just needs this package. I believe whatever keeps an individual horse sound is the way to go and this mare is just a special one…

if given the choice, I’m not sure I’d do wedge pads again even though I know they help a ton of horses. For mine, they crushed the heels more than they grew them. If I understand my farrier correctly, one still has to leave more toe if nailing for a safer margin of error than what we were able to do with the epona/synthetic shoes. That mattered with this horse. Again, she is special and super sensitive. Needs a 5 week max trim and sometimes four depending on the time of year. Six weeks erases any good from the last month and sets her back in growth and angle.

I’m not an expert in anything. Just an owner who tried everything (steel, aluminum, leather pads, rim pads, wedges, impression under pads, packing, roller shoes, natural balance shoes) and didn’t believe my horse was a pasture puff at 13. I’d sold a house and had cash to throw at it. I also have a farrier who is a huge geek and loves to measure everything. Lol.

you have some great info from the responses so far.

Good luck!

[BlueDrifter]

It is raining here, so photos are a bit tough, but here is one.

I tell you, looking at this photo makes me want to find earlier photos to see if it looked better last year. And I still need to look for the same hoof with xrays.

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[BlueDrifter]

And here he was a year ago – not the same leg, but it seems there was more heel a year ago! This is prior to my current farrier, when we decided his toes were too long.
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[JB]

Sooooo, what’s the problem, exactly? There’s PLENTY of heel now, and there was even more a year ago.

[BlueDrifter]

I dunno, @JB, here are the xrays with shoes on – angles look okay?

This is from 9/4/2019. Right before I took him in for MRI.

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[kashmere]

I had a reply all ready to roll last night but my computer ate it and in the name of Christmas Eve I went to bed instead of retyping.

Buuut JB pretty much summed it up. Lots of heel both then and now. I’m not terribly comfortable reading x-rays, but my (limited) experience tells me that the info you gain from looking at the foot itself is pretty much confirmed on the rad. The toe needs to be backed up fairly considerably and I would say the heel essentially needs to just be preserved and prevented from running any further forward. Horse appears to have a good depth of sole all around. If you put the foot as-is on the ground (without pads) the PA probably comes close to zero, but again, backing up the toe and maintaining the heel will help improve the PA without the wedge. (please take this with a grain of salt, I am not a vet or farrier and don’t play one on TV, just a well-meaning internet stranger who has been down a wild ride of feet and corrective shoeing and the whole shebang!)

In the “before” picture, his angles look… definitely not like anything that would make me consider a wedge. Yes, too much toe - but also I would say too much heel. Just looks like a foot well overdue for a trim. You can see that at the last maybe 1/2 inch of toe it starts to flare forward a bit but looks otherwise well connected. That shoe setup, though, with a high heel, long toe, and shoe set right at the toe making the breakover at the end of that fairly long hoof capsule is kind of a recipe for growing underrun heels, tripping, and putting undue stress kind of everywhere.

You said the “before” his other front leg, and from comparing the two I’d say you probably have a biiit of a hi/lo situation going on, unless his other foot looked like that before as well… in which case I am scratching my head trying to understand why wedges were put forward as a solution to the heel-pain/tripping/lameness.

If he’s consistently heel-sore despite clearly being able to grow good heel, my thoughts on the cause/places to look are:

• compensatory pain from elsewhere in the body. Sore hocks, for example, can cause them to overload their front feet and cause heel pain from simply doing too much work

• contracted heels/frogs from deep thrush, or toe-first landings, or being shod too tightly at the heel, or a combo of all three.

If this were my horse, I would probably take him out of the setup he’s in, get his toes backed up pronto (which may mean over a few trims depending on what’s happening with the laminae at the toe), assess for thrush deep in the CS and treat accordingly, and then do whatever I could to get him using those heels he keeps usefully growing. Probably for me that would mean some padded hoof boots for some combo of riding/turnout depending on how he feels and moves once the shoes are off. The goal would be to get him landing on those heels and building up the frog. IME, this is easier to do in boots or flexible glue ons like the Eponas @Sfbayequine uses because they let the hoof expand and let blood circulation in the hoof do its thing as intended.

I have a mare whose issues sound very similar to your boy - happy to share experience if you would like!

[Postandrails]

I agree - I don’t see why your farrier would think the horse needs wedges.

Based on the earlier photo and xray, it looks more like the horse has too much sole built up under the toe. from around the tip of the coffin bone to the end of the toe. It is a bit harder to tell from the later photo because it is not completely side-on. I suspect that the farrier has lost sight of the correct “plane” to trim to. Is the sole cracked and looking very built up?

In my experience, those types of strong feet with good quality strong walls that don’t tend to flare also have rock hard sole which doesn’t shed naturally as easily as weaker feet, and it’s something you have to keep an eye on. Is the sole really strong and hard to clean out? Is the horse kept in a very dry environment like in the photos?

If you removed the whole set up and took out a little bit of sole and wall height at the toe, then rolled the toe wall you would pretty much have perfect angles without the pad set up.

Do you want to have the horse in shoes? If so, no problem but if not, they look like good strong feet that might also transition well without them.

[BlueDrifter]

@kashmere I look at the xray now and it does seem the toe is long, but in person it seems short. I think I will resend the xray to my farrier and ask if she sees the same thing. He is definitely not worked too hard – with his on/off lameness I worry he isn’t moving enough and am also thinking of “southern california pasture” in the spring, which is really just a dry lot, but bigger than a stall. His feet look damn near perfect under the pads. I am there for every shoeing. Not a hi/lo case – it stopped raining today so I’ll take another shot at good photos. Thanks for sharing your thoughts

@Postandrails Same at @kashmere, looking at the xrays now, there does seem to be a lot of sole depth. He is kept in a dry environment (SoCal), and both farrier and I agree he has great feet. I haven’t noticed any sole build up on the hinds – they are open and easy to pick out. The fronts didn’t use to be that way before pads, and now I don’t know. I would love for him to go barefoot, but not at the expense of managing boots all the time. SoCal soil is hard and rocky and all my friends who have gone barefoot spend their entire time playing with boots. That said, he does seem to have something going on with hock/stifle as there is an occasional dropping out when riding.

Based upon everyone’s feedback, it seems I could just take the pads off and trim appropriately – no gradually ratcheting down from wedge to rim pad to no pad?

[Hawks_Nest]

In my experience, having that much extra foot under the internal structures doesn’t do the horse much good. If you are battling off and on lameness in the front feet and there is nothing visible on imaging of the feet, then it is more likely up in the neck or the shoeing set up is bruising the feet. We have one horse with decent imaging (his conformation isn’t great but no reason to be chronically foot sore) and we finally found that a frog support pad is what makes him the most comfortable. He also has somewhat clubby tall feet and has to have a rocker shoe on one foot as well because he tends to land very heel heavy, the rocker allows the foot to slide a bit.

My personal horse grows a ton of foot, all in the right direction. BUT if he doesn’t get it all trimmed back every 3-4 weeks he becomes uncomfortable behind. A few years ago my vet had to literally stand there with my farrier and tell her to go until she found blood when trimming the hinds to make sure all the extra hoof got taken off. A long hind toe stresses the stifles.

[JB]

With the pads on you can’t see, but I’d bet there’s a ridge of false sole there.

the “dropping out” is typical of weak stifles, and since he’s not in good work, and since you’re in SoCal I assume no real turnout, that’s going to be hard to turn around unless and until he can get into more serious work.

@Hawks Nest I hope your vet wasn’t saying literally find blood! :eek: no:

[Hawks_Nest]

@JB

@Hawks Nest I hope your vet wasn’t saying literally find blood! :eek: no:

He wanted her to keep going until she was about to bleed him. No blood was spilled but almost 3/4”-1” of foot was taken off that at first glance looked like is was supposed to be there. 😳