If the horse keeps offering/asking to go lower… do you allow/encourage? Or do you maintain a slightly stronger contact and ask for more forward.
For context it’s a horse who is older and just learning to ride with contact. Also learning how to trot for all intents and purposes. Previously it was walk or lope, no in between.
This is something that requires tact and context.
Western horses are often taught to maintain an artificially low headset.
You want in dressage a horse reaching for the bit in a way that helps raise the withers and work towards a bascule and tracking up behind. You do not want the horse just stretching out and falling on the forehand with little crippled steps.
So the question is what is the overall posture of the horse and how is he carrying himself not just where is the head.
head position, whether below or above withers, is irrelevant (assuming it’s what you’re asking for/allowing)
What matters the very most is what the back end is doing (which impacts how well the back is working)
If the horse is lowering his head and dropping his back, then his head is too low because he’s been allowed to not engage his hind end (enough)
Even a stretchy trot, forward down and out (FDO) needs an engaged hind end and back
I’d allow some stretch at the walk that’s not engaged, before I’d allow at the trot or canter . Sometimes, you just gotta stretch
Otherwise, I’d ask for engaged stretching on contact, OR, “go as you please” without contact
“Otherwise, I’d ask for engaged stretching on contact, OR, “go as you please” without contact”
Ah, I think that answers what I’m asking. The stretching is a good thing in this case, he’s offering it in a positive manner, but I’m not sure when it’s too much… so I think my answer is that when he’s trying to go too low, I ask for more forward/engagement.
This isn’t a case where the horse was trained to a low headset at all, though it is naturally pretty level.
Also think it’s a timing thing. If my horse has worked in elevated contact. Pushing from behind. For our entire session. I often end with long trots where his hind end is still super engaged and he’s stretching down and low on a loopy rein. Just the last 5 minutes.
This was my OTTB mare when I started re-educating her. At some point she discovered how gooooood stretching was, and it was literally the “nose to toes” downward stretch. Like, “where is her neck???” LOL!
For a short time, that was ok (and probably longer than I should have allowed) because honestly, stretching muscles was a good priority. After that, I asked her for some more engagement, then more, then more.
In general, shorter work that’s done more correctly, beats longer “go as you please”. shorter might be 15 minutes of really correct work, including a walking warmup LOL
The longer they get to practice an outline/the work you don’t want, the harder it is to break them of that habit, something to keep in mind
Yes, that’s what this feels like. He releases and I think it feels really good. But honestly it’s progress so I’ll take it.
I agree that you can let them go to the ground if they stay active an in balance. One thing Carl Hester says, is that you’ll get the best stretch at the end of the ride, so you could try stretching at the beginning and the end, and comparing, then making sure the beginning stretch doesn’t go too low and lose the quality compared to the end stretch.
It’s taken until just recently for my 9 year old mare to really maintain balance and stretch way down. When she was younger, poll about at wither height was the best she could do.
Working through lots of frames/postures is always a good idea regardless!
From the ground or if I have eyes on the ground I’ll look for when the throatlatch starts to close. It isn’t fire alarm panic but I want reaching down and out so if things start closing in, I want to look for a chance to add a little energy or shorten the reins so that the length matches where the horse has the strength to carry.
Also, I judge how the contact feels. If the horse is asking to go straight to the ground typically I feel like maybe they needed a break sooner and I’m getting more of a dumping down as opposed to I’ll take the stretch as far as you’ll let me but I’m happy and secure at any point along the way if the contact tells me to stop stretching along the way.
I just go by how the back feels. If the back is lifted and engaged, I let them go as low as they want.
I’ve been experimenting with my older gelding lately, as we are following Jec Ballou’s spring conditioning program and she wants a long rein for the first four weeks. My gelding gets confused with barely there contact, so I’ve had to break out the ground poles to get him to realize that he can go in a relaxed frame and still engage his back. Took me a stupidly long time to think of this solution. 
I see many, many training level horses with AA riders at shows who take long & low aka stretchy circle to the point where they are not stretching through their backs, instead they are slogging around the circle on their forehands. So, yes there is a point where it is “too much”, and it sometimes takes an educated eye on the ground if the rider doesn’t yet have the feel for what an engaged back feels like on that particular horse.
Exactly 
At some point, it’s a stretch and nothing more. Even FDO - forward down and out - which IS a stretch but one with a purpose, is done between harder work segments, it’s not a working outline. It still needs to be done correctly
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