How many hours 'til horse isn't "green"?

I’m sure everyone will say “depends on the horse”, but how many hours would you estimate to take a green broke driving horse to the point where he’s considered solid?

In March, my 5 yr old Haflinger had six weeks of riding and driving training. He was started in an open bridle, then blinkered, and was taken on the roads, in traffic, into a small town and had bicycles riding alongside.

Once at home, I didn’t have anyone to help me drive him but he a lot of nice trail riding over the summer. Last weekend, his trainer was in the area and came out for a driving refresher course here. The horse did pretty well, driving nicely in a fenced outdoor area. My husband and I both drove at the walk and had the gelding break into trot for no apparent reason; the trainer drove him at the trot and had him leap into a few strides of canter. All three times horse came back easily. Horse is a rational, laid back sort overall and that was the only glitch.

Still, it got me thinking about how much work this boy needs before we can safely take him down the road, or to a driving event!

Our sons are just getting their drivers’ licenses, and the law requires 20 hours of driving time before you can take the road test. Do you think 20 hours of HORSE driving time (not harnessing, unharnessing, etc, but actual time spent on the cart) be enough to consider him trained to drive?

Personal opinions and stories are welcome.

Just like green riding depends on what you are doing, it depends on what you are doing driving. A horse needs to be exposed to lots of different things before they can be considered, no longer green, to those things. So if you drive in the ring a lot, the horse may be fine there, but still green to the trail or to traffic. However, they don’t get experience by sitting a home. Trail riding is a good prelude to trail driving. Even hand walking in different areas, like at a show, at friend’s farms, etc is good experience. It will depend on the horse, and on your driving experience. An experienced driver will be more comfortable in strange situations than you will be.
Sorry there is no easy answer.

Much will depend on the person driving the horse, and what conditions the horse is driven in. Educated hands teach the horse more with each outing. Ring driving can teach a lot, but doesn’t have much variety in exposure to new things.

I don’t think 20 hours is much in time, for a solid driving horse. It is a step forward, but no place close to being a finished horse. Putting the horse into new settings, picnic drive, driving show, is really pushing a horse hard, with his 60 days training, plus 20-30 hours of other driving. He just doesn’t have the depth yet to be real reliable, with all that new stuff coming at him.

Pricestory gave other good suggestions for getting horse out and seeing new stuff.

Some animals APPEAR to be accepting, but they can then surprise you when they lose their nerve or react poorly to something they have seen before. Others show only forward learning, never have a problem with all they get to see.

Unless you have trained a number of animals, you may not be able to “read them” very well by body language. This means you may be asking horse things he is not comfortable with. He may not understand things WELL, that you have already done. This is where your trainer needs to come on a regular schedule to review horse knowledge, watch you and him in your driving work to see if he has holes that will cause problems. A trainer will have better educated eyes, see the signals horse gives, that may have you in a danger zone you don’t realize. Should have suggestions to improve skills, progress steps to move on with.

Not being critical, but it sounds like horse and drivers, need some lessons to allow you to improve communication, continue to develop your skills with the horse. Trainer eyes see lots that we miss, can pinpoint an issue very quickly to prevent it becoming a problem.

There is no time schedule in driving, where you can say that horse is “trained”. At our house, we say horse has a “good start” when he has been hitched and driven, at least a 100 times. He gets worked and tired, building his new body for driving. No 40 minute session and done each hitching! Lessons are 3-5 days a week, building on what he already has learned. Not just done weekends, or once a week. That is a fair amount of hours involved, along with the needed handling to prepare for hitching, to have on a horse. Certainly the horse HERE gets extra stuff like long-lining, maybe ridden as well, in among the driving sessions. We tend to really set high standards for our horses, want them totally dependable in all situations. ALL of our safety depends on ALL the horses being reliable. So for us, a year of work and new experiences, going out and about will get horse up to the “pretty dependable” rating.

We “home folks with outside jobs” can’t get in the time and miles that the Amish trainers do, so horses don’t advance as quickly in being totally unflappable, road safe beside the highway! For the Amish trained horse, he may be hitched every day of the 60 days with 5 or more miles under his feet each hitching. Like a riding horse who gets 2 or more hours under a saddle each day, learns more faster!

Sounds like you have a nice quiet horse with good basics. Now he just needs consistant time and work to develop driving skills and high level of tolerance to the weird things all driving horses seem to meet!

:sigh:

Dang this obligatory full time job to support family and critters! Our next event is a ride/drive 4 day weekend in June 2010. If nothing else, I will be able to ride!

The long term goal is having a fun hobby for retirement, so in the meantime, we will continue to build on his basics, and I will take more driving lessons.

My farrier thought I should farm horse out to the Amish for a year but I’d be nervous about the pendulum swinging the other way and having the horse over-worked to the point of unsoundness.

Thank you for the input!

PS - the 20 hour auto driving requirement is also nowhere near enough, I’d say my sons each had over 100 hours with me white-knuckling it next to them before they were ready to take the road test! :smiley:

I drove for several years before I even thought my horses were out of the green horse/green driver stage. Once we went out on the country roads, back trails of nature parks, neighbors huge fields, around traffic, showing, I don’t consider us green any longer. Also helped to have a judge tell us that I really need to move up from novice to amateur driver!!

One other thing, you need to trust your animal. Learn their habits, know any subtle signs of them maybe stepping over or giving something the hairy eye, what may give them pause or snort. Go to driving classes that are offered in your area or join a club that has nice older folks who can teach you and work with you.

Good luck and have fun!

I think it takes years for a horse not to be green.

I finally consider Zanzer not a green horse the last year. He has shown brains, maturing, handling situations very well, much more excepting of what I ask for the most part.

Does that make him dead broke and perfectly behaved–well at the last CDT some would that idea!!!

Always remember they are first and foremost a horse and 99.5% of the time are fine–it is that one second when it can all go to h–l in a hand basket .

20 hours!?! I’d say that even in experienced hands of a good driving trainer that the most or best you have after 20 hours is a horse that is able to go forward in front of a carriage.

No more than that.

Now in my world before the horse ever gets in front of the carriage it would be long reined, long reined and then long reined and then long reined some more :winkgrin:

For a minimum of 40 hours before it ever got put to a vehicle. It would be longlined in an arena, in a field and out on the roads. It would be longlined with headers and then on it’s own out there and in and around anything and everything. With people dragging garden implements and making a host of noise behind it and with vehicles etc etc etc to contend with.

That’s just before it ever gets put to a vehicle. Then you have to spend a lot of time after that.

However I don’t think it’s just to do with time. It’s both time and experience that you need to turn a novice driving horse to an experienced and confident animal.

So there needs to be variety in it’s training. I often get driving horses in that need to be recovered. They’ve been to one of those “we’ll do it fixed price in 6/8 weeks” places and then the horse goes back to a novice or intermediate owner that has never produced a horse before and then there’s been a disaster.

Often because the horse has never experienced anything other than flat arena driving. So first time there’s a huge bump that really rattles the vehicle and harness and everything, a lorry going by too close and perhaps whipping up a breeze or a splashed puddle, a steep hill down that pushes the britching on hard, a bird flying up from the hedge, a spook and a few canter strides which bump the carriage… anything out of the norm then there’s a blind panic from the horse and which escalates because of the inexperienced driver’s reaction.

Then a disaster!

So a driving horse needs hours of good varied experience whereby it’s exposed to as much as is possible. I’m not a believer in “sacking out” as you Americans call it though.

Rather I want a driving horse to know that it can absolutely trust me. No matter what happens if I tell it forward, it will be safe. It can trust me and know that I won’t ask it to do anything that’s detrimental.

Then though you have to factor in the owner. If the owner is a novice then no way can they then further develop or bring the horse on. To train you have to know what you’re doing. You have to do it right, at the right time, with confidence and with surity in your ability.

If a horse breaks into a trot it’s really not an issue. It could be for a host of reasons: from misunderstanding a command, to an unbalanced carriage that lifts and hence gives instruction, to just wanting an easier pace. (Remember if a horse is unfit then walk may be harder). However what makes a difference is that an experienced horse will know when it’s safe to trot and not and will respond to a driver’s correction to either continue forward or to transition back down and always under calm control.

When I put horses to harness one of the major factors that determines how long the horse is with me, is what the ability of the owner is. I have to get the horse to a level where the owner can cope with it. Even for advanced drivers.

20 hours though… NEVER. If someone sent me a horse and said it had done 20 hours driving training then for certain I’m labelling it GREEN.

Thank you for the response Thomas1. This will be remembered as I have two younger horses waiting to start! With Finn, though, he’s been through the 6 weeks training, where he was taken down the road on the cart, seen traffic, done hills, and prior to any driving training, his previous teenage owner used him for vaulting (ah, youth), and showed him in hand at the fair, so he’s seen some things.

I was more wondering what the driving equivalent to “wet saddle blankets” (miles riding) is. From all the posts, the gelding has a ways to go, as do I!

I consider myself a driving novice, but I have been around horses for 25 years now, so that helps in reading them, and sensing when they are getting overfaced, as well as when they are learning.

If a reader were to take all the driving posts totally to heart, I think that they would be tempted to give up the driving idea. Instead I am more determined to do it right. Barring illness or other unforeseen event, I have plenty of time!:yes:

Time is dependent on duration, repetition AND what is actually being done.

If I were to get off the fence and make my bollocks slightly more comfortable :wink: I’d say, average learning curve, reasonably competent driver, good mixed programme of schooling and getting out and about, minimum hour a day 6 days a week, then give it 6 months and I might be persuaded :winkgrin:

I can’t judge by hours at the trainers, but I estimate Cookie got over 200 road-miles over a period of 6 weeks. Most was on country roads, but he drove her in city traffic too.

At 4 miles per hour, that would only be 50 hours. I don’t know how far a horse can walk in an hour, though. And I don’t know how much was walking and how much was trotting.

I can tell you that those 200+ road miles produced a steady driving horse. I am always watching for things that could be problems, but I have found that she has a good mind and I can trust her. I’ve only had one spook when a semi hauling gravel passed us. She was fine till the whoosh of air hit her (of course he didn’t even slow down for us) but she came right back to me and went on about her job.

I don’t know the answer to your question either, but I still call Cookie green-broke to driving. My Cookie is a grade horse who was bought at auction at one yo., but she is a 14.2 hh. haffie-type.

I hope you have fun with this endeavor. My hub. isn’t a rider so we went into this so he could drive and I could ride my other horse. So far, I’m having so much fun driving, I don’t feel like riding any more.

Yip

1 mile in approximately 8 minutes

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4500922]
1 mile in approximately 8 minutes[/QUOTE]

at what speed are saying? if that is walk, that is awfully fast–
At CDEs, the walk component is 1 km under 12 minutes. Most horses walk that around 11 minutes. 1 km is .6 miles, so a full mile would be somewhere around 20 minutes walking.

We travel 7- 8 mph trotting in CTDs. And can knock out 5 miles in around 45 minutes (mostly trotting, some walking)

Some “green” horses are steady, eddies from day one (but they are still green until they have enough training and experience). Some horses are just calm and hard to spook. Some experienced horses, with years of training may be shown in their discipline, but it would never be my choice to take them in a parade or down a busy street. I don’t think it is something you put a label on.

As to driving, it really depends on experience (horse handling, riding, type of riding, personality, ability to handle stress, etc) and trainability. A “green” driver (as in no horse experience) is completely different from a “green” driver with good horse sense and years of ridden experience. Some people just learn fast and some people don’t. Some people are smart, some have been taught how to learn and some haven’t. Some people have really good co-ordination and some don’t. Some people come to lessons with “baggage” and some don’t. Again, I don’t think it is something you put a label on.

[QUOTE=Cartfall;4501593]
at what speed are saying? [/QUOTE] Mixed walk and trot.

On average at a maintained working walk for a horse I plan average 6 mph and for a maintained working trot 12 mph.

Hence if the horse is doing a brisk working walking and working trot then safe to say 8 minutes per mile as a rule of thumb.

At least that’s what mine always do. Mine go driven exercise out 5 miles and that takes just 40 minutes and with some decent hills to trot/canter up but slow and careful walks down.

I have a 2 yr old that has been driven only once and I would trust her over some that have had lots of driving experience.
I was at a clinic and heard horror stories of several accidents at the previous years clinic of runaways and people seriously injured and hospitalized with experienced horses.
Alot of it is the handlers experience and knowledge of safety.

[QUOTE=China Doll;4505794]
I have a 2 yr old that has been driven only once and I would trust her over some that have had lots of driving experience.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I would not agree. A 2yr old “goes along for a while” because he is so inexperienced at ANYTHING. They are off balance, really don’t have much of a clue as to what is being asked or done to them. They kind of just hide inside their little brain for a while, see what is going on.

Can’t tell you how many very young horses I know about who have been hitched, DRIVEN a number of times, done LOTS of stuff, who THEN decide to go stupid. They have big wrecks.

Hooking them young and working them, is not going to make them safe driving horses. They have no depth of experience to draw on when they meet a problem or new situations. Often the handler just can’t do anything to aid the horse or prevent the wreck.

Do not accept tolerance by the horse during a few sessions, for acceptance of what you are doing in adding cart, harness and expecting them to haul it around. Happens in ridden work too. Sometimes when they get familiar with the experience, gain some balance with the equipment or rider, they revolt.

Clinics can be good or bad experiences. As a rider/driver, you need to have horse prepared to work in the situation. Sometimes YOU have to tell the clinician “No, I or horse, am not comfortable doing that. We have never practiced that.” Changing several things at once, in harness adjustments, new vehicle, adding speed, can just be TOO MUCH difference. Horse over reacts, his little brain can’t process so much, along with a clinic setting. Nice horses often do seem to “get REAL STUPID” at some clinics.

Everyone seems to expect miracles at a Clinic, but the best learning, steps to real change, is done is SMALL steps over time. I expect to pick up a useful idea or two at a clinic, not modify my whole set up that was mostly working for us. I will have to work on those ideas for a while to see real results. Gimmick changes, the instant fix, may work for a session or two, but horse will go back to previous behaviour within a week or two of regular work. Magic bits loose their magic!

It does depend on the horse to how long you call him a green horse under harness. People often call there horses “green” but there is light green & dark green! If you say 50 hours is needed, thats just over 2 full days in harness! Sure you can say those hours are spread out, but if someone worked a horse for 3-5 hours aday 50 hours is nothing really. I can guess there will be people here that will think working a horse for up to 5 hours is far to much, but it’a not! Work an hour here and a couple there during the course of the day and you will rack up the numbers in no time. You don’t have to be running the horse down the road to be working it , but soft training I can put 3 hours a day on a horse without the horse breaking a sweat. There are many ways of exposing things without stressing him.
Personally I think Thomas explains it very well and what he’s saying should be followed.
For me I keep my horses for 2 years before I sell them. I’m not sure the hours I put on them & I’m quite sure I really would want to know, but I sell my horse as soild drivers and you can only get that with years of time on them. Even 2 years on a horse can still mean he’s green if you don’t put the hours into them.
Training horses I put 3 hours into them each day. That can mean round pen work, ground driving and so on. I like to keep them in for 6 weeks so you can count those hours up and work that out, but I still think of them as green and insist that the owner comes and spend as many hours with me & the horse learning to drive a green horse. A trainer never likes to give back a horse that has only had less than he thinks could use more time under him , but many owners look more at the cost of keeping the horse in training and the benifit to his/her safety & the horses. So all to often horses go back to owners with “just enought” time on him. The main thing that you need to consider is not how many hours the horse has on it, it’s how many hours the drivers got on him! I’m ok with giving back a horse that I think is ready for the drivers skills to save that owner another months training fee, but I will not let the horse go home to a owner I know couldn’t handle a green horse. Because in the end people are more likely to lay blame on someone else when they do something stupid!

I’ve never had a horse leave me with less than 80 hours varied driving training.

They’re novice driving horses without doubt.