How much control do you need to be considered "safe"?

[Gloria]

Hi I’m a newbie in fox hunting (hunted three times last year and looking forward more this year), and I have a few questions that I hope the wise here would answer me…

A short background: I’m a hunter/dressage rider. I school my horse just about every day in dressage, show hunter pleasure and dressage, plus trail rides on some weekends. My pony does really well in all. He especially enjoys the hunter pleasure classes where he can stretch his legs out in group of horses.

In dressage and hunter rings, the horse is required to be absolutely obedient. You doesn’t change gait unless I ask you to, and at the speed within the gait I dictate. I can do all with my seat alone. I ususaly give him loose rein when out in trail. He is active and attentive.

Now all that change when we go out on hunt field. He was excited, eager, and much stronger. He went into higher gear on his own accord, kinds of does his own thing, following the pack sort of speak. I had to use my hands a lot to slow him down.

So my question is, how much control do you need in hunt field to consider the horse to be safe? By the way, he never ran away with me. I was kind of shock, however, when I discovered my pony wasn’t as obedient as I used to. I was accustomed to subtle messages to the horses… On the other hand, I also heard that when hunting, the horse does his thing, and the rider kind of hang on and go for the ride. Is that so?

Thank you all for your information.

[MyGiantPony]

As long as you don’t trample the hounds and have good breaks without playing bumper cars to stop, you’re good.

The most schooled, dead broke horse will be more up out hunting.

And no, you shouldn’t allow him to do his thing and just hang on for the ride.

His purpose is to be your transportation to best view and enjoy hound work (if you are a ride to hunt person). You can’t enjoy/focus on hound work if your horse is doing his own thing.

[Benson]

Hahaha, the title of the thread made me giggle:) In my short experience with Hunting (in my third season), the least amount of control you want is to be able to stop when necessary. Hunts are all different and folks will quickly let you know if you are within the social bounds of what they think is acceptable for control and behavior.

Your horse should be doing exactly what you want WHEN you want it done. He will quickly figure out who is in control out there and will act accordingly.

[tullio]

Just a thought… one of the things I have been enjoying most about hunting is that a good horse (and I have been lucky enough to hunt a great one this season!) will not just listen to what you say, but will tell you things, too. Obedience is very important keeping to everything safe, but I really love those times when I can float the reins a little and the horse picks the best path through a muddy spot, or lets me know that it’s time to be an extra bit slow and careful as we navigate the territory. I find he reacts even faster to changes in footing than I do and have learned to trust his judgment to keep us both right side up.

I want the horse to listen first and foremost, and want to feel that I can stop, start, turn, speed up, slow down when I judge it necessary… but also like to feel that the horse does some thinking, too!

[Gloria]

MyGiantPony, Benson, and tullio, thank you for sharing your thoughts! I’m quickly learning that hunting is a brand new animal!!

my pony behaved so completely differntly at the hunts from the trail rides or hunter paces. At the trail rides or the couple of hunter paces, we would have horses galloing by and he did not bat an eye lash, ok, maybe a mean look at them if they got too close, but that was all.

At the three hunts I’ve been to, he was a different horse. It was almost like, “hey, mom, I know what I’m doing, so let me do my things”. He still listened when I asked him to circle, leg yield etc. But when other horses were galloping, he was extremely reluctant to slow down. He was determined to keep up with the big guys. Ummm I was riding in a Myler Comofort snaffle, maybe I need to up my bit for the next hunt. Or maybe he knew we were supposed to follow the hounds? Weird. Other than that, he was perfect. Acted he grew up with hounds his whole life, and taking up steep hills like nothing.

The group of people I hunted with were just the funnest and friendliest I have ever seen. They kept offering me some gin, which I had to sadly decline. Half can of beer can put me out of commision. They also kept telling me what a good rider I was, better than many of the folks that hunt… They were so kind… For one thing, I knew I could not jump the jumps they did, and only wish I felt as confident and relaxed as those folks. sigh…

[Hotspur]

Turn up the volume

Good for you for getting you and your horse out fox hunting! Your awareness of the change we all experience with our partners when in the hunt field is a great start to building a bigger and better bond with your horse.

All of the training that you have done with your horse before you tried fox hunting is great stuff and it all counts. My guy Riley and I event a bit in the summer and the dressage and cross country skills are the base line for our safety in the hunt field. However, most horses, mine included, will let you know that your regular aids can be somewhat invisable to them when covering ground at speed.

Subtle aids and even half halts can be ignored when they are focused on keeping up with the other horses. I’m not suggesting that you ride only from your hands, but most of us use just a bit more bit when hunting. It’s better to be able to get their attention when you really need it than to be hanging on thier mouth all day.

Experience and time in the hunt field will help you both and it sounds like you have a great outlook on safety for both you and your mount. Stay safe and keep hunting. It won’t be too long until you will be able to leg yield him around a soft looking spot in your path while cantering along with the field.

Good on ya!
Hotspur
Metamora Hunt

[Jleegriffith]

I would say this is a pretty normal question and a few times I have found myself out with not enough bit. Recently, with my conn/tb who is about as broke as they get and super super light in the mouth. Dummy me stuck to the kk loose ring that he normally goes in and figured out I had a bunch of nothing.

It really is a process of trial and error. I have a really big TB that I hunted last year and although a lot of people do pelhams he found that to be a bit much over the fences but loved the 3 ring french link so I had brakes and a happy horse.

I want enough that I can half halt and stop when needed but not so much that the horse is spending the whole time fighting the bit and plotting ways to pay me back:lol:

I love the wonder bit for the horses that need a bit more. I have hunted a few in a gag and really like that especially for the horses that want to lug down a bit. Ultimately, we should try to ride them like we do in the ring making them balance themselves but the pack mentality often means you have to have enough tools to break into their mental mindset when everyone else is running.

One thing that I have personally found is that you have to get a bit more comfortable with letting go of control. I find myself wanting to take a few tugs when really I don’t need to. If the horse is following and not riding the butt of the horse in front then I need to just sit still and let it be. That can be hard to do when you are galloping around up and down hills and through the worst of the footing but you get more comfortable with it as you go. I remember one hunt just being totally flat out to the ground galloping across a huge field thinking OMG we could hit a hole…I will die…how fast are we going…what if the field master stops and I can’t…really it was a bit alarming. Now I just make myself let it all go and pay attention to what is going on in front of me and nothing else. It helps quiet the voice in my head;)

[Gloria]

Hotspur and Jleegriffith, thank you for your kind words and encouragements. Fox hunting has been my dreams for years and it was really the reason why I started to learn to ride, but only got enough courage last year to give it a try.

I will definitely up my bit for the next hunt. I think I will try a full bridle with a thin fish back bradoon. It is the strongest bit I have in my tack room. I used it once in a hunter pleasure show and found it to be too strong. Pony was reluctant to reach for it. Don’t you know? We dressage riders love horses to reach for bits? hehehe. I think this will be a good time to try it out on the hunt. It was no fun getting your arms pulled out of the sockets, and pony was not too happy with my pulling all the time.

I think I understnad what Jleegriffith say about letting it go a little bit. It was especially hard mentally though since it was against everything that has been drummed into my heads through years’ lessons. But at the last hunt, I decided, “hell, just let him go at his speed a little bit, I was not successful in rating his speed anyway…” Wow… What a thrills… And funny part was, once I decided to let pony go, pony decided to check ino my a little bit, and all the sudden I got some control back. Oh no he still did not want to walk when everybody was galloping, but hey he listened to me to slow down a little bit and speed up a little bit at gallop:D

One more thing… I have this concern of high speed on questionable footing. When we were galloping across fields, I kept imaginging him stepping into a gopher hole underneath of the tall grass… I remember staring at the grass, and wondered, “oh he’s going to break his legs, and I’m going to have to put him down…” Did you guys worry about that? or maybe I’m just scaring myself for nothing?

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Gloria;4501246]
MyGiantPony, For one thing, I knew I could not jump the jumps they did, and only wish I felt as confident and relaxed as those folks. sigh…[/QUOTE]

It will come with time.

My “perfect” horse was “perfect” the first 4 times out hunting. Boy - wasn’t I special.

Then he figured out what was going on and I had quite a feisty horse for a while - who got more and more fit.

Folks on this BB gave me some really useful tips on tack, management and feeding that helped a great deal. I also got some feedback that I didn’t much care for - but it was invaluable. (such as - the horse may not be suited to hunting)

In my case xc riding was no biggie - it was the dynamic that made my guy do airs above the ground.

Fast forward and he’s quiet at checks, hunts on the buckle, he’s just an old pro.

Keep your head up, heels down, and don’t be afraid to bit up.

Good luck.

ETA - Oh - I just read your concerns about footing. You know… this may be hard but you have to “let go”. I’m not saying let the horse be out of control. But that you have to TRUST the horse to figure things out to an extent.

Many of us are used to micromanaging our horses a little - but out hunting there is SO much going on that you can’t stare at the ground wondering. Sit light - tight - and hover over the horse. Balanced - so you can recover from stumbles and the horse isn’t having to deal with you galumphing all over his back. The horse has to watch where he’s going. You have to be able to rate him, of course.

I can’t describe it very well - it’s almost a mental hurdle. But once you overcome it - you’ll find you and your horse have a much closer bond. You really trust and watch out for each other.

(that’s my experience anyway - our territory is very trappy - lots of holes, mud, banks, deep creeks)

Hope that helps.

[kookicat]

Can you swap rides for at least part of your next hunt? Find someone with a pro hunter, and ask them to ride your boy? If nothing else, it will give you more feedback on your boy.

[Beverley]

Consumer warning- been hunting since 1971 but I could be a bad influence, my attitude has always been, if the brakes fail but I still have steering, I’m okay.

But, seriously- for your own safety and the safety of others- when your horse needs to stop NOW, he needs to stop NOW. That might be (based on personal experience)- because you have a tack issue like broken (or about to break) stirrup leather that you need to sort out before continuing to gallop for miles, OR, you need to not step on a hound or a fallen rider, OR, huntsman or staff needs to get through ASAP, among other things.

Hunting is a much more pleasant experience when you ‘bit up’- it is better to have the brakes and not need them, or only need to apply them lightly, than to be hauling on each other all day long.

As for footing, as has been suggested, yes, just ‘let go.’ Horses don’t like falling down or losing their footing so they are paying far more attention to those little details, even when you aren’t. As JSwan noted- you and the horse need to trust each other to get your respective jobs done- and your job is, mostly, letting the horse do his work while you enjoy the hunting!

[Gloria]

JSwan and Beverley, I have to smile reading your comments about footing… Human psychic really get in the way of riding doesn’t it? Of course horses know what’s underneath their noses and hooves more than we do, so why do I stare at the grass for him? Not sure whether I will be able to leave the grass alone 100% but I sure will try.

kookicat, thank you for your idea. Normally I would say swapping mounts would be a very valid option, except in the case of my pony, that probably is not a good one… I have been the exclusive rider (well almost exclusive rider) of this pony and when a rider of a different style ride him, he gets rather un-nerved. However, I’d make sure to have people experienced in hunt to evaluate him for me.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Gloria;4502617]
JHuman psychic really get in the way of riding doesn’t it? [/QUOTE]

Hells Bells - I should make that statement into a cross stitch sampler and hang it in my tack room. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Beverley]

Well, as to footing and the horse looking out for itself (and by extension, its rider), I managed to survive watching my son, when he was 7-8 years old, galloping my saintly qh, hell bent for leather, across pastures chock full of groundhog holes without a care in the world. But it was good for at least a dozen gray hairs.

[Elghund2]

The other thing beyond brakes and steering for safety is fitness. I’ve seen more than a couple of crashes because a horse was not fit enough for the job.

When you’re hunting and all of a sudden your horse is hitting every coop, it might be time to retire from the field.

[Ponyclubrocks]

Another thought on the footing obsession (this is something I have had to work hard to overcome)…if you are looking at the ground all the time, you will have a much rougher ride, as you won’t see whats happening ahead of you soon enough to react smoothly…I usually ride about four or five back from the master, so I try to always keep my eyes on the master, so I know he’s changing speed well before the horse in front of me changes gaits. This way, I am able to make the transition my idea instead of my horses, for example, I ask for the trot a few seconds before the horse in front of me starts trotting, so my horse tends to listen to me more…

Sometimes I have to yell at myself (silently in my head of course!) “Keep your eyes up!” The more scary the situation, the more important it is to keep looking up. My horse is in charge of where he’s putting his feet, I’m in charge of our pace and path!

[nicbarker]

I agree with the others who’ve said its (ideally) about a partnership with your horse - my best, most experienced hunters trust me to listen to them, and in return I expect them to listen to me BUT I leave them alone much of the time, as they “know” their job too.

Over bad ground (we have bogs, slippery footing and steep hills galore) then it is their job as much as mine to select the best route, and I know if they refuse to go forward its almost always because there is a real problem. I insisted once, and was shown (by my horse) that it was bottomless bog and perhaps we should choose another route - lesson learned

I want good manners, so they need to go in front or behind or wait on their own when asked to, but equally I don’t nag them the whole time to be obedient for the sake of it.

My horses tend not to take their eyes of the hounds and huntsman, and will give me a hint if they have moved off out of site Sounds like your boy may have found his niche, Gloria

BTW, definitely definitely DON’T look down Especially not when the footing is bad(!)

[Gloria]

Wow you guys (or ladies) really give me some great insights here. I was reading every post two or three times to make sure I got them all imprint in my head:)

You know, in dressage, the high word is “harmony”. And to achieve true harmony, I believe there must be a two-way street, meaning conversatoin between my horse and me, not just one way shouting/demanding. Unfortunately that is not a view shared among common dressage community. Ummm I believe that fox hunting can really strenghen the bond between my pony and me.

nicbarker, I think my pony does watch the hounds and huntmen. How did he know which ones were huntsmen were beyond me, but everytime he moved out, I’d raise my eyes to see the hounds and huntsmen had moved out.

Here is an interesting story. Maybe I was reading too much into it but maybe not. At the last hunt, the huntsmen stopped and the rest of us just mosey around behind them, waiting for their direction. Pony was quite patiently standing there and watched those red coats intensively. Then all the sudden pony turned around, and started to walk back where we just came from. I kept turning him back, “we need to wait here”. He kept telling me, “no, this is where we need to go”. I was getting a bit frustrated with him when suddenly the huntmen started to pass through the group of us and walked back toward where pony was trying to take me to. I was speechless and I swear he was rolling his eyes:o Somehow he was a whole lot more perspective than I was and knew what was going on when I was still in a fog.

[nicbarker]

I was speechless and I swear he was rolling his eyes

Sounds familiar - my horses do that to me sometimes too :lol:

How did he know which ones were huntsmen were beyond me,

Some very special inter-species stuff goes on when you are out hunting, thats for sure:) I often just feel privileged to be out there - great to hear that your pony is being such a star - long may that continue