How much do ground manners affect price?

[Bristol_Bay]

I’m thinking of selling my gelding. He’s a papered WB, coming 12, recently shown and placed in all his classes, including reserve champion of an adult eq division. Super solid and safe to ride. Previous owner was a teen who learned to jump on him. Sound with normal maintenance for a horse doing his particular job. He’s insulin resistant and low thyroid, all under control with proper diet. He’s a more fit and healthy horse than when I bought him.

His quirk is he hates being groomed and will try to nip. He will lift a hind leg but puts it down with a voice correction and has never actually kicked a person.

How much would this factor in to an asking price? There is a type of rider whose groom handles the horse who probably wouldn’t mind. I don’t really mind it, although it’s not my favorite thing about him.

Anyway, what do you think?

[Always_WIP]

Honestly I think it depends. I’m of the camp that unless you have vet records proving it, nipping or other really grouchy behavior is coming from pain. As a buyer, I would want the vet records to ensure he’s been scoped/checked for back soreness/etc. otherwise I would have a hard time buying a horse that’s grouchy when handled.

Do horses exist that are just super sensitive and hate grooming? Absolutely! Do horses learn to do that type of behavior and then continue it even once the root cause is solved? Also true.

But when I don’t know the seller or the horse, I’m going to assume that something else is going on.

[TheHunterKid90]

If I was a potential buyer my mind would be going towards pain related reactions.
Have ulcers been ruled out?

[findthedistance]

From the buyer side, I agree that when I see a horse objecting to tactful grooming, I’m wondering what combination of Lyme/ulcers/back pain/whatever is at play. If the horse is otherwise great, my PPE would be very thorough.

On the seller side, I was once the agent involved in selling a horse like this. He was an OTTB who just didn’t like being groomed. He had been vetted to within an inch of his life and the records were available. The buyers didn’t blink at the situation – and he was purchased for a pre-teen – and it didn’t affect the (modest) price at all.

[Bristol_Bay]

If he’s scoped and there is no evidence of ulcers, how much would his ground manners affect his price? His back is fine. Saddle fits, teeth done.

(We don’t have Lyme here)

[CBoylen]

Not at all. They either want it or they don’t. There’s not a sliding pricing scale depending on how hard it bites. The horse costs what it is worth based on its record and quality, and the buyer decides if grooming manners are an issue to them. For most people buying a performance horse it isn’t a factor.

[mmeqcenter]

@CBoylen

Not at all. They either want it or they don’t. There’s not a sliding pricing scale depending on how hard it bites. The horse costs what it is worth based on its record and quality, and the buyer decides if grooming manners are an issue to them. For most people buying a performance horse it isn’t a factor.

I agree with this

[atr]

Yep, not really a price issue, more a “do i want to deal with this” issue.

(Many people will think (rightly or wrongly) that they can magikally fix the poor misunderstood horsie, anyway.)

[StormyDay]

I think it probably won’t affect price but it is something you will have to disclose before they come to try him, and it probably is going to scare away some buyers. It may just take more time to sell him.

[Foxglove]

Perfect ground manners are essential for any horse I would buy for a child. For me? Not so much as I have had great success (with the help of this bb) fixing some ground issues. I went to an auction month before the ranch horse sale to check out what they had. William Tell was the second horse I looked at. He was led out, brushed and saddled. He shook his head, snapped his teeth, and pawed. I asked the handler if that concerned him. He said no. I judge them when I am in the saddle. WT was an instant YES when I rode him! Passes vet and farrier evaluations. He has been a super horse since day one. He still isn’t dead still for saddling, but he has learned to turn his head away on a word. Works for me, but would never sell to a child.

[clanter]

price will not be affected, but selling may be an issue…personally I would not even look at the horse

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

The “fanciest” barn I ever rode at had a horse and a medium pony for introductory lessons and for kids doing their first half-leases. The horse’s nickname was The Shark because not only did he hate being groomed (people were told just to brush him with a soft brush, no curry), he was actually quite “good” at biting people. In other words, he wouldn’t just bite defensively, but try to actively get at someone who was say, bending over to sweep or zip their boots. He was in his twenties and had quite a storied show career.

For me, as a personal “only” horse, it would be a “no.” But like others have said, this is something very personal. If he can teach someone to jump, is comfortable, and has a good show record, and is at a show barn where the grooms mainly handle the horses, it might not be seen as much of an issue.

You may want to talk with potential buyers, though, about the relative confidence and tact about whoever will be doing the grooming (professional or owner). To be fair to everyone involved.

[Indy]

It shouldn’t affect price but could affect saleability, which depending on how fast you need to sell him could affect how you price him.
For me, as an ammy with a kid, I don’t do biters or cranky manners. I want something I can trust on the ground. I prefer more pet personality. Doesn’t need to want to sit in my lap but does need to tolerate grooming and some hugging. I’d be the same way buying something for a kid. But there are plenty of folks out there that don’t care about ground personality if they like the ride enough.

[Renn_aissance]

I know plenty of horses who are so ticklish that they find grooming a penance. My sister’s late fellow yearned to be brushed and loved on but also couldn’t stand even a soft brush on his belly, which was a source of great internal conflict for him. And he was gray… (Through trial and error we found the right pressure to apply with a towel and mostly got by.)

If the horse is a vicious kicker who has no gears between 0 and taking your head off I wouldn’t buy him for a child who doesn’t yet know how to read body language and stop bothering the horse, and I might not want him for my mother. You say this fellow isn’t exactly like that. To me, it wouldn’t impact the price point, but it might impact your pool of buyers.

[endlessclimb]

For me it would be a no, as I enjoy grooming and want the horse to as well.

I’ve known lots of horses like this though. My late mare took the softest of the soft brushes in order to tolerate it without constantly doing this tongue-sucking thing.

[foursocks]

It depends on the intended sales audience. A high level show horse, particularly a jumper, can have room for a lot more quirks. I’ve known plenty who are high strung, touchy, sharklike in their stall, have to be held for mounting, etc. etc. and it’s acceptable because they do their job really well. One for a child or an ammy who wants a fun horse to play with needs to be less quirky. Your horse, OP, doesn’t sound all that bad to me, and if he has a good show record he’s definitely an easier sell. It’s something to be disclosed, certainly, but I wouldn’t factor it into his price at this point.

One of my horses had been slapped around a lot when he was young and had decided his best defense was a nasty offense (biting and kicking). I always knew that he would be a VERY hard sell because he could be quite dangerous. He got easier over time but that was mostly because we had him in a very well-defined program, he trusted us, and we knew his boundaries. If someone like me hadn’t decided to take a chance on him he would 100% have ended up in a can. <-- that type of behavior is much more of an issue than the OP’s horse’s behavior as a resale project, to my mind.

[TheJenners]

@findthedistance

If the horse is otherwise great, my PPE would be very thorough.

This, and I might haggle a titch if the vet recommended back xrays or scoping based on what they saw.

@Bristol_Bay

If he’s scoped and there is no evidence of ulcers, how much would his ground manners affect his price?

If you went into the sale with him already scoped, it would be something a buyer like me (adult ammie, good budget, horse is partner + pet) would appreciate because it would show you cared about his behavioral ticks and ruled out a potential cause - it would not affect price for me.

@atr

Yep, not really a price issue, more a “do i want to deal with this” issue.

Yeah it’s going to come down to this. I think as long as you are upfront about vices and he’s otherwise a (an?) unicorn, no one will bat an eye - forewarned is forearmed.

[beowulf]

I agree with this, with one addition. A horse that is a consummate professional and class act around the ground builds a reputation for himself, which can lend to him being more desirable under any price and these horses tend to sell themselves. Vets, farriers, grooms, barn hands, and workers all talk. I have one in my barn and the vets, body workers, etc always ‘fight’ over who gets to handle him. People have even seen how he ground ties and handles at shows and have offered to buy him because his manners caught their eye and then they watched him go.

I was a working student for several BNTs when I was a young adult and I remember getting some rank horses in our program – but it didn’t matter to the pros, because they had a solid competition record. Plus they weren’t the ones usually handling the horse on the ground. For a while being freakishly athletic over fences was synonymous with being “quirky” and/or awful on the ground. I still have a scar on my chest from a sale horse biting me almost 20 years ago. He was still my favorite, but I wish we (me, BNT, pros) had done better by him. I’m thankful that our collective horsemanship has grown in the last several decades and most people recognize now a “quirky” horse is really a horse in pain.

For non-competition homes, manners matter much more because the person doing the purchasing is usually looking for a connection with their horse.

In your situation I would make sure whoever comes to see him, tacks him up all themselves so they’re aware of all his behaviors. And if you’re certain it is not physical, you can disclose it as a behavioral quirk. Some horses don’t love being groomed, but in my experience a horse who is behaved poorly about it has pain somewhere. One of our lease horses started to really pick up his work last summer and started gradually becoming worse to tack up. He would threaten to kick especially if you were trying to curry mud off of him. In his case, it was two things: his leaser was using a hard curry comb, and he had lingering back soreness from his hind feet needing more protection with the increased work. We put him in shoes, swapped out the hard curry for a Tiger tongue, and he was better within days. Then just to be sure, I treated him for ulcers anyway and the behavior went away completely. Any time there is a pain component, I think ulcers are likely as a secondary problem.

[hoopoe]

the ground manners would not put me off, but the IR / low T would

[Bristol_Bay]

It’s not an issue at all. He gets a supplement for the thyroid, and no sweet treats, but that’s it. He eats alfalfa and timothy hay—nothing special. No meds.