How much does a grand-prix level groom make?

[Wanderosa]

@AffirmedHope

#yallhiring? I do have US and EU citizenship! :lol:

I was thinking the same thing! Lol. And I know how to do basic carpentry and fence building!

ETA:

Forgive me if i’m wrong - but where did this poster say that they don’t have workers comp insurance or would be exempt from paying out on a claim? I only saw insurance mentioned in the context of health insurance.

This is what my state of Virginia says about independent contractors & workers comp: [LIST=1]

Independent Contractor vs. Employee

Some business owners will designate a worker as "independent contractor" or pay them on a 1099. Under workers' compensation law, the designation and 1099 are not important. In the event a worker is injured, the facts of the work relationship are considered, particularly, 1) who controls how the work is performed, 2) can the worker be hired, 3) can they be fired, and 4) are wages paid for the work. If employer control is found, an "employee" relationship is established.

[/LIST] So, yes, they would still be liable for a claim based on my understanding. Back when I owned a farm that produced humanely raised meat and eggs, I paid both workers comp and something known as “incidental employee” coverage through my master farm policy. IIRC, this policy also provided some sort of tort protection in the event of an employee being injured or killed while operating a company vehicle. Type of motorized equipment and who would be operating it is the first question my agent asked. Vehicles don’t add a significant amount to the policy. Tractors and other agricultural specific equipment do. I don’t have direct experience with equestrian operation insurance beyond seeking a quote for a boarding operation at one point. The coverages and liabilities were similar to the farm policy. Your average homeowner’s insurance company won’t touch a farm with a 10’ pole. I can’t imagine that this poster doesn’t have liability insurance unless they’re certifiably insane. I’d also imagine that anyone moving horses internationally on a regular basis would be under close scrutiny.

Re overtime, health insurance, etc. Again speaking from experience of Virginia - only hourly employees are entitled to overtime and those engaged in agricultural work are often excepted. There was an exemption requiring salaried employees working 40+.hours a week & making under $23k to get overtime. That got changed to under $47k this year, IIRC.

Look. I’m a single parent of two. Due to a one time health issue and a need for flexiblity because my ex doesn’t help much with the care of the kids, I make $10.25 an hour working FT as a department manager at a large retailer. That’s $322 a week after taxes, folks. I’m eligIble for health insurance through my employer for 2019. I’m kicking myself for taking it. $25 a week is more than I was paying for Obamacare & the coverage isn’t going to be as good. I’ve had a 401k at my last two jobs. I couldn’t afford to use it because, well, kids can’t live on air. I have a master’s degree that’s useless now because the field requires Top Secret clearance since 9/11. So, if someone offered me $86k to take care of horses? I’d happily take it and buy my own health insurance, put $ into a money market account, and not care what they were calling me because I’ve been getting far worse from companies that call me an employee.

[poltroon]

@HonestPersonFakeAccount

This is wise counsel. I should note in the numbers that I previously quoted that our grooms are independent contractors. We don’t withhold taxes. We also do not provide a retirement plan or health insurance. Interestingly, we interviewed our grooms two years ago and to a man when presented with a choice of greater benefits (e.g. health insurance) or more base compensation and scheduled bonuses, they each preferred the higher base and scheduled bonuses. This has worked out well for all parties. A few of the guys have 401(K) accounts that they fund from their incomes. They pick their own health coverage - some have families, some don’t. My sense is that ours is a fairly common arrangement.

My admiration and respect for paying these valued people what they’re worth. And thank you for saying so.

A couple of things. First, your workers may have retirement accounts but unless they’re someone’s employee they can’t contribute to 401(k)s from their work. They can have IRA or SEP-IRA which have different rules and limits. 401(k) requires that the employer arrange the program and are not available to the self-employed.

Second: be aware that as people have mentioned, the work of a groom is unlikely to withstand legal scrutiny as a independent contractor should such scrutiny occur. The two ways this is likely is (a) your worker does not pay quarterly and annual taxes promptly and accurately or (b) if one of your workers is injured on the job. I am aware of a barn owner who had a very very bad legal tangle in the case of (b) even though everyone was trying to do the right thing. Note this goes triple if any of your workers are not American citizens. I say this not to frighten or shame anyone, only to inform.

Health coverage: thanks to the ACA your workers can buy their own insurance as individuals. If it is rolled back or repealed it may be that a group plan is the only way to buy it, so that’s something to watch. Note that if a worker is injured on the job that their health insurance is going to be asking after workman’s comp, even if the worker wants to protect the BO, and that their health insurance can sue even without the policyholder’s approval.

I have been the highly paid long term IC and it can be very attractive to both parties, so I understand the appeal of this arrangement. Just know that the scrutiny on these has increased dramatically in the last 20 years and that most of the liability is on the payer, not the laborer.

[Manahmanah]

six grooms for 14 horses??

dear lord

[HonestPersonFakeAcco]

@poltroon

My admiration and respect for paying these valued people what they’re worth. And thank you for saying so.

A couple of things. First, your workers may have retirement accounts but unless they’re someone’s employee they can’t contribute to 401(k)s from their work. They can have IRA or SEP-IRA which have different rules and limits. 401(k) requires that the employer arrange the program and are not available to the self-employed.

Second: be aware that as people have mentioned, the work of a groom is unlikely to withstand legal scrutiny as a independent contractor should such scrutiny occur. The two ways this is likely is (a) your worker does not pay quarterly and annual taxes promptly and accurately or (b) if one of your workers is injured on the job. I am aware of a barn owner who had a very very bad legal tangle in the case of (b) even though everyone was trying to do the right thing. Note this goes triple if any of your workers are not American citizens. I say this not to frighten or shame anyone, only to inform.

Health coverage: thanks to the ACA your workers can buy their own insurance as individuals. If it is rolled back or repealed it may be that a group plan is the only way to buy it, so that’s something to watch. Note that if a worker is injured on the job that their health insurance is going to be asking after workman’s comp, even if the worker wants to protect the BO, and that their health insurance can sue even without the policyholder’s approval.

I have been the highly paid long term IC and it can be very attractive to both parties, so I understand the appeal of this arrangement. Just know that the scrutiny on these has increased dramatically in the last 20 years and that most of the liability is on the payer, not the laborer.

You’re 100% correct. I misspoke. They have IRAs. Thank you for clarifying!

[Bending_Line]

If the employer has the means to write a check for a car full, or house full, or barn full, of injured workers who could have catastrophic injuries, or need skilled nursing care (because you said you are sure the employer would pay their medicals out of pocket if injured on the job), then why on earth would that employer not want to pay nominal WC premium on a monthly or yearly basis and avoid that liability? The employer may seem horse-world-sophisticated to you, but business world wise, or risk management wise, this is a very naive way to run a business. And if it’s not set up as a business, and the employer does all these things in their own name without an LLC or corporation to absorb some of the liability, that is even more naive. My horse operation is very small and not at all sophisticated, but I definitely do withholding, CGL, and WC.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I have no dog in this fight other than being an independent contractor in a non-horse-related profession (writer), but this is a pretty decent thumbnail sketch of how an independent contractor versus a salaried employee is distinguished under the law:

"Common law principles further define independent contractor status by method of compensation. If a person is on an employer’s payroll and receives a steady paycheck, clearly that the person is an employee rather than an independent contractor, who likely receives payment in a different manner. Other considerations when identifying someone as an independent contractor may include:

• [B]If the worker supplies his or her own equipment, materials and tools[/B]
• [B]If all necessary materials are not supplied by the employer[/B]
• [B]If the worker can be discharged at anytime and can choose whether or not to come to work without fear of losing employment[/B]
• [B]If the worker control the hours of employment thus indicating they are acting as an independent contractor[/B]
• [B]Whether the work is temporary or permanent"[/B]

Copied and pasted from this source, more information here if anyone's interested: https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/employee-vs-independent-contractor-differences-you-need-to-know

Again, I think the braider is a good example of a genuine independent contractor. Comes to the barn with tools. Can pretty much dictate her terms, and the barn only has the power to say “no, we don’t want you again.” For example, a braider can say, “I can’t do next weekend for the Monmouth show, I’m braiding for another barn,” and other than threatening not to hire her again, the barn can’t take away her work as a braider. If a employed groom says, “I can’t be at the show next weekend,” she can be fired and would have to look for a new position.

[Another-Bay]

Holy moly, this exploded!

I want to thank y’all for the honesty thus far. And while not initially addressing my direct question, I think this topic on compensation and benefits is deeply interesting.

I would like to say @HonestPersonFakeAccount does seem to have put a lot of thought into their employees, which is above what many do for grooms. And I do think that’s worth mentioning.

​​​​​​​All in all, I’m glad I am not in charge of paying people and their livelihoods! It’s a challenging game in the horse industry.

[Bending_Line]

Well, for what it’s worth, 25 years ago when I was a recent high school grad and grooming for a Grand Prix rider, I got $425 a week, I think, while we were on the road; had withholding; and had housing paid. However, I was injured on the job at a show, and I don’t remember any talk of or offer of WC benefits. I naively thought that I would have some kind of insurance coverage through an estranged parent (not so, since I had just turned 18) and could ignore the bills, and the bills haunted my credit for some years thereafter. I am sure those employers thought they were very generous in most respects (beautiful facility, nice housing, etc.) but in hindsight the WC coverage was a real blind spot on both sides.

[MHM]

@Bending Line

However, I was injured on the job at a show, and I don’t remember any talk of or offer of WC benefits. I naively thought that I would have some kind of insurance coverage through an estranged parent (not so, since I had just turned 18) and could ignore the bills, and the bills haunted my credit for some years thereafter. I am sure those employers thought they were very generous in most respects (beautiful facility, nice housing, etc.) but in hindsight the WC coverage was a real blind spot on both sides.

I’m sorry to say you are not the first or the last person to find out the hard way that when you get hurt on the job around horses, even the wealthiest employer may not lift a finger to help with those bills. Some employers might, but many won’t. And getting hurt around horses is not exactly a rare thing.

It’s probably even more of an issue for people who may not be exactly legal in the first place, and therefore may be less inclined to make a fuss.

[Bending_Line]

And if I had had my own health insurance, and the health insurer found out (most hospitals ask now) that the injury occurred on the job, the health insurer would have subrogated against the employer, and the employer would have had to pay…Not offering WC is not an effective way of avoiding employer liability for injuries on the job (but hiring people who don’t know how any of these things work or don’t believe they can speak up is another story, I guess)

[oldernewbie]

I was a non-horse related independent contractor for almost 20 years, so I am familiar with being paid via a 1099. One fact I haven’t seen mentioned in this discussion is that if you are paid on a 1099, you owe both sides of the social security deduction - currently 15.3% of your gross. If you are an employee, you only pay 7.65% and your employer pays the other half. My accountant advised holding back 40% of my pay to cover state and federal income taxes and the social security taxes. So, adjust the pay given above accordingly. It seems very generous considering what most horse employees make.

On the other hand, I agree with others who have pointed out that this is really an employer-employee relationship parading as an independent contracting situation. I am aware that it is rather common in the horse business but that does not make it legal or advantageous for the grooms in the long run. They may have agreed that they would rather be paid this way but I wouldn’t be surprised if some are skirting some taxes somewhere. Or they agreed while not knowing the laws very well.

I have a nephew who works as a roofer. He was bragging about how much he was making but after a child support dispute it came to light that he was working as a 1099. Once we discussed the taxes he would eventually owe and the total lack of workmen’s comp, suddenly that hourly rate didn’t look so great. No question his “employer” was taking advantage of him.

I think the only reason this approach has run rampant is that the IRS has been gutted and enforcement is non existent or very lax. That does not make it right - I don’t care how many people do it or agree to be part of it. In a dangerous profession like horses or roofing it can easily catch up with all involved.

[Jeepgirl311]

Our grooms are paid $100/day and they work 6 days/week. Plus tips and they are housed/fed when we are at shows. We are not a national level grand prix barn, but we do attend shows 2-3 weekends a month, and probably 50% of those are A/AA shows with 4-5 riders competing in local grand prixs and regional mini-prix. Our barn ships out tomorrow for WEF but will only be in FL for 2 weeks, to give you an idea.

[kenyarider]

@HonestPersonFakeAccount

Respectfully, I thoroughly disagree with your use of the word “illegally.” That is a powerful, specific term. You’re mis-using it. There is nothing remotely illegal about engaging independent contractors. I think that what you mean to state is that the IRS has a series of “right-to-control” assessments that can be used to inform a determination of if a resource should be categorized as an employee or independent contractor. A determination in either direction does not suggest an “illegality.” Should the IRS make such a determination (i.e. the resource is rightfully an employee, and not an independent contractor), and further determine that there was no “reasonable basis” for considering the resource an independent contractor, then the remedy for such a violation is potential liability for employment taxes. In the equestrian world, this assessment has repeatedly found significant “reasonable basis” for resources being classified as independent contractors. (Obviously, every case is different - I can tell you that this issue has emerged in the past…but not generally relating to grooms.)

More to the point, the number one means of referring a matter to the IRS for such an assessment is a complaint originating from the independent contractor/employee in question. Please let me assure you: Grooms earning six-figures, working with spectacular horses in great conditions, are not contacting federal government agencies seeking to complain about their lot in life.

This conversation is largely academic and doesn’t really address the OP’s initial question. More to the point, arguing that grooms should be employees ignores the prevailing reality of the industry. The reality is: This is how our industry largely works.

Everyone’s case and circumstance is very different. Instead of critiquing that which you may not know and may not understand (i.e. if you’re not paying multiple grooms top wages, then your point of reference is entirely theoretical), why not consider celebrating those programs where talented, hard-working people can earn six-figure incomes and provide for their families? Many of our grooms are immigrants with limited educational pedigree. They now have homes. Their children are in good schools. They pay their taxes. They contribute to our communities. And they do this because they have jobs that respect their talents and compensate them accordingly.

Isn’t that the American dream? Isn’t that indicative of a land of opportunity? The working conditions at our barn are phenomenal. Grooms work 50-60 hours per week at shows. 40-50 hours per week otherwise. In Wellington, we have six grooms and three managers taking care of 14 horses. No one is over-worked. Everyone gets a minimum of one day off per week. Every quarter, everyone gets one full week of paid vacation. Should someone become injured on the job, then I’m 100% confident that our owner would provide for all medical costs. Indeed, when one of our grooms was out for six weeks with a family medical emergency, he got paid the entire time. His travel costs to be with his family were covered.

My point is: Are some people awful to their grooms? Unfortunately, I’m sure that’s the case. Are some working conditions horrible? Again, I’m certain that’s regrettably true. However, to suggest that programs that engage grooms as independent contractors are doing so as some sort of underhanded behavior is an ignorant notion. The question was about the top programs - not the lousy behavior that some people try to get away with. In my experience, the top programs are at the top precisely because they know how to value their people.

Are you for real? People working 6 days a week with one day off is supposed to be a good working situation? Do you work 6 days a week 10-12 hours a day? You are obviously either crazy or some kind of monster. No one who is working those hours and doing hard labor is rejoicing at the situation. There must be certain level of hell for people like you. Oh yes, that would be our current Congress and President. Go and wallow in the swamp. You belong there.

[AMWookey]

@kenyarider

Are you for real? People working 6 days a week with one day off is supposed to be a good working situation? Do you work 6 days a week 10-12 hours a day? You are obviously either crazy or some kind of monster. No one who is working those hours and doing hard labor is rejoicing at the situation. There must be certain level of hell for people like you. Oh yes, that would be our current Congress and President. Go and wallow in the swamp. You belong there.

Plenty of people work 6 days a week or even 7 days a week and love it. Plenty of high level grooms such as the ones she is talking about leave the industry for various reasons and still love and miss it. I have a friend who worked for some of the biggest names in the industry and remains close friends with her former employers. Pretty sure she doesn’t think there is a special place in hell for them.

Also if you had read her post, they have 6 grooms for 14 horses, plus three managers. Yes its 6 days a week, but there are jobs out there with harder labour then that for sure.

[HonestPersonFakeAcco]

@kenyarider

Are you for real? People working 6 days a week with one day off is supposed to be a good working situation? Do you work 6 days a week 10-12 hours a day? You are obviously either crazy or some kind of monster. No one who is working those hours and doing hard labor is rejoicing at the situation. There must be certain level of hell for people like you. Oh yes, that would be our current Congress and President. Go and wallow in the swamp. You belong there.

@kenyagirl Your math is flawed. You are clearly a moron.

The world in which we choose to live and work abides by a six day work week. That is the way that it is. If you don’t like it, then work elsewhere. As I clearly stated, during shows, our grooms work 50-60 hours per week. This works out to approximately 8-10 hours per day. During non-showing weeks - which, incidentally, is the majority of the time - this works out to approximately 7-8 hours per day. I also mentioned that our grooms have one week paid vacation per quarter - the equivalent of four paid weeks vacation per week. One average, our grooms are responsible for two horses each. The care that we provide is exceptional - everything that we do emphasizes quality over quantity. Our staff lives in very nice housing. Two meals a day are provided. Day money for expenses is provided. Uniforms are provided. Travel expenses are provided. We have ongoing continuing education programming provided. Pray tell, what do YOU provide for your team? My best guess: You have nothing to offer anyone but an uninformed opinion.

To answer your question: Yes, of course I work these same hours. So does most EVERYONE who chooses to pursue opportunities at the top of the equestrian world. I know of no one - truly, not a single professional - working at this level who doesn’t implicitly understand the expectations of our industry. My work environment is exceptional - you make it sound as if work conditions approximate pre-child labor laws at the dawn of the industrial revolution. You’re being hyperbolic, and it makes you sound idiotic.

Do you even exist in this world? You are demonstrating extreme ignorance. The question was what do top grooms working in top programs earn in actuality…not what does your limited mind and podunk experience think. If you truly believe that providing $100,000 per year opportunities for people in the horse world qualifies one for a special place in hell, then please message me because I would love to work for you in whatever situation you offer that is better than what I am experiencing.

More to the point, what do YOU pay your grooms? What working conditions do YOU provide? Your commentary leads me to believe that you know nothing about our industry, or exist in a functionally irrelevant space. If you have nothing to add but misplaced political commentary, then maybe you belong in a different forum.

[MHM]

@HonestPersonFakeAccount

@kenyagirl Your math is flawed. You are clearly a moron.

<snip>

If you have nothing to add but misplaced political commentary, then maybe you belong in a different forum.

I realize you’re new here.

Generally speaking, the people who belong in a different forum are the ones who call other posters morons for having different opinions.

[ladyj79]

I do exist in this industry, and what it looks like when you scratch the surface is often what you see above

ie point out I’m breaking the law and I’ll call you a moron nobody :lol: good times.

classify your employees properly, pay the taxes and expenses, further suggest you delete all of your responses here, because you have a lot of identifying info in this and other posts

I mean, I still think the figures you’re throwing out here are bollocks, but regardless your employer? (You? I dont think its you) are still illegally classifying employees and here bragging about it and saying that’s what everyone does and anyone who doesn’t like it should sthu. Ugh. Fwiw, yeah lots, but no, not everyone.

[HonestPersonFakeAcco]

@MHM

I realize you’re new here.

Generally speaking, the people who belong in a different forum are the ones who call other posters morons for having different opinions.

I disagree. Morons can’t do simple math. And, worse yet, use their flawed math as the underlying basis of their argument. And, suggest people are “monsters” and belong in a special hell based on their erroneous math.

I’m perfectly fine with dissenting opinions. I’m decidedly not OK being referred to as a monster.

And, the argument of your nnewhere so your expertise matters less is flawed. The question related to top programs. I work at one. I have specific expertise that I shared. I’m not suggesting our way is the only way, or even the best way. I merely conveyed my experience.

​​​​​​

[MHM]

@HonestPersonFakeAccount

I disagree. Morons can’t do simple math. And, worse yet, use their flawed math as the underlying basis of their argument. And, suggest people are “monsters” and belong in a special hell based on their erroneous math.

I’m perfectly fine with dissenting opinions. I’m decidedly not OK being referred to as a monster.

And, the argument of yourey new here so your expertise matters less is flawed. The question related to top programs. I work at one. I have specific expertise that I shared. I’m not suggesting our way is the only way, or even the best way. I merely conveyed my experience.

​​​​​​

Perhaps you misunderstood.

Your expertise or lack thereof is irrelevant to the issue of calling someone a moron (twice) and telling them to go away. Even if they said something you don’t like.

[oldernewbie]

I submit that you are sharing your experiences here but certainly not your expertise. For if you actually knew something about hiring/firing, you would not make the statements you have made nor handle the grooms the way you (or your organization) has.

Here’s a simple test that’s often given to independent contractors: Do you have more than one customer? If you do, you are pretty much in the clear when it comes to your independent contractor status. I always made sure to have at least 2 clients every year so I could pass the test. Any organization that works people 6 days a week, takes them to shows and houses them, and all the other stuff you mention is treating those people like employees. I don’t care how often you assert that’s that’s the way it’s done and how much money you’re throwing around, you (or your “employer”) are in the wrong.

This has been a long standing and touchy topic in the software business. What ultimately happened?
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-workers-at-microsoft-win-lawsuit.html

Certainly a much bigger fish than a hunter/jumper barn. And they were in the wrong!

Calling someone a moron when you clearly don’t know the laws or the history on this topic is ironic, to say the least.