How much land do I really need?

[DHCarrotfeeder]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;7893848]
With all the buildings and the scale of them that you want, you really need to start with looking at your local zoning regs. … And then you are looking a lot of square footage of building footprints with the large barn, arena, house, and shed(s). [/QUOTE]

Certain townships have recently adopted very strict stormwater drainage laws. In these places, any impermeable addition to a lot that would accelerate the flow of rainwater into the watershed now requires special rainwater collection pits and pumps that hold all of the water running off the building and release it a day or two later. These things are obscenely expensive and only new project/buildings bear the burden of these regulations. That is not the common situation here in the Northeast but it would be practically a dealbreaker.

David

[AmarachAcres]

I kept offering to turn the center of our arena into a soccer half field for my husband. Where we fence off his half field, with a track around it and a dressage size arena on the end for us.

The mechanics/engineering behind the ice rink idea though… no clue.

[QUOTE=Frog Pond;7893978]
Lots of good advice here, but no one’s touched on the riding ring/hockey rink idea? That could be . . . a serious marital strain!! Before committing yourself, talk with an excavator and maybe an engineer to see how it would go :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

[AmarachAcres]

I kept offering to turn the center of our arena into a soccer half field for my husband. Where we fence off his half field, with a track around it and a dressage size arena on the end for us.

The mechanics/engineering behind the ice rink idea though… no clue.

[QUOTE=Frog Pond;7893978]
Lots of good advice here, but no one’s touched on the riding ring/hockey rink idea? That could be . . . a serious marital strain!! Before committing yourself, talk with an excavator and maybe an engineer to see how it would go :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

[Charliezmom]

I mentioned the arena/hockey rink to my DH (huge hockey fan) and he said he would totally do it to. All he’d need was a large tarp, some 2x4’s for framing and a lot of water. Sheesh…that’s never going to happen. They also make synthetic ice panels which don’t require any water. If they weren’t so dang expensive I know we’d have some in our yard.

[ayrabz]

I think you’re being very wise to get good opinions here from those who have ‘been there done that’. I know I’m discouraged in regards to my lack of understanding of grass maintenance. I feel like I planned very well (!) the layout and the usage and preparation for horses on such small acreage that I have…(inherited the homeplace, choosing my own larger acreage was not an option for me) Nice manure management set up, nice hay barn set up, nice tractor / tools shed set up, nice cross fenced turnouts, nice small barn and attached run in…but what I did not realize was: horses will continue to eat grass to DIRT even in the winter. I simply thought, once not growing, they’d move into hay eating…Maybe I never noticed it at boarding barns with lots of land, that they did eat it to dirt even in non growing dormant months. THAT I did not plan for. I am now struggling with how to handle that, as my ‘sacrifice’ area is about 70 x 60…(attached to the run in ) and I never knew? I’d need to keep them ‘off’ the grass areas entirely? in order to protect it in dormant months. I expected to hay them there, and let them have the room to roam, but I’m finding that not to work. If I had more land, I would be able to let them destroy one area each winter…

[kerlin]

Thank you everyone! It does sound like I should be aiming more for 10-12 acres.

I know this area very well, and we’re willing to be patient. If the right land doesn’t present itself in the next 12 months or so, we will get a smaller house in town and I will continue boarding. I adore my boarding barn and feel lucky that they take superb care of the horses, so as much as I want my guy at home, he’s in a good situation now. A lot of the places we’re looking at are within 20 minutes of the same barn, so I can haul back for training, short stays for him, etc. The area in general is very horsey and very accommodating. We love it.

I had a vague idea about zoning regulations but it sounds like I need to do a lot more research. We have a short list of about 10 towns around here that we’d like to look in but only 2-3 of them have offered good possibilities right now for property. We’ll be compromising with whatever we get but I’ve seen too many farms strip the land to want anything less than good land - I can deal with renovating a house, but not flooded pastures every spring!

As for the horse arena/ice rink: yes, it is a bit of a stretch. We’d have to do a lot of thinking, logistically. What we’re envisioning right now is a large outdoor arena, that we drag one last time before it freezes & is unusable in the winter. Then adding over it something like this system: http://www.portarinxandbambini.com/. It should hold the water just fine, and the arena will need to be level anyway, so the arena actually should provide a good base. Then we’ll rig something to drain the water out of the arena when spring comes, and ta-da. I wouldn’t be riding in it over the winter anyway, and this will keep the fiancé happy with the horses at home. Of course, the perfect solution would be to find land with a pond, but we’ll see!

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Charliezmom;7894231]
I mentioned the arena/hockey rink to my DH (huge hockey fan) and he said he would totally do it to. All he’d need was a large tarp, some 2x4’s for framing and a lot of water. Sheesh…that’s never going to happen. They also make synthetic ice panels which don’t require any water. If they weren’t so dang expensive I know we’d have some in our yard.[/QUOTE]

We had a hockey rink on our property - it was the synthetic locking panels! It was across the driveway from the arena and was a fraction of the size of the arena. Mr. PoPo didn’t have a lot of space to skate, but he did put up a net and practice his shots . . . . as witnessed by the holes in our fencing!:lol:

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=kerlin;7894774]
Thank you everyone! It does sound like I should be aiming more for 10-12 acres.

I know this area very well, and we’re willing to be patient. If the right land doesn’t present itself in the next 12 months or so, we will get a smaller house in town and I will continue boarding. I adore my boarding barn and feel lucky that they take superb care of the horses, so as much as I want my guy at home, he’s in a good situation now. A lot of the places we’re looking at are within 20 minutes of the same barn, so I can haul back for training, short stays for him, etc. The area in general is very horsey and very accommodating. We love it.

I had a vague idea about zoning regulations but it sounds like I need to do a lot more research. We have a short list of about 10 towns around here that we’d like to look in but only 2-3 of them have offered good possibilities right now for property. We’ll be compromising with whatever we get but I’ve seen too many farms strip the land to want anything less than good land - I can deal with renovating a house, but not flooded pastures every spring!

As for the horse arena/ice rink: yes, it is a bit of a stretch. We’d have to do a lot of thinking, logistically. What we’re envisioning right now is a large outdoor arena, that we drag one last time before it freezes & is unusable in the winter. Then adding over it something like this system: http://www.portarinxandbambini.com/. It should hold the water just fine, and the arena will need to be level anyway, so the arena actually should provide a good base. Then we’ll rig something to drain the water out of the arena when spring comes, and ta-da. I wouldn’t be riding in it over the winter anyway, and this will keep the fiancé happy with the horses at home. Of course, the perfect solution would be to find land with a pond, but we’ll see![/QUOTE]

Whoa! I lived near Jay, VT many years ago. I’ve been in the horse business for over 45 years and I suggest to you that more homework is in order before you decide on acreage, location, facilities construction, and the like.

My best advice is to check with your local extension agent. The problems faced by a horse farm in VT, NH, northern NY, and ME are substantial. If you were opening a dairy farm, I say go for it, but horses are different. A cow can live with mud and damp conditions, but horses need a little more upscale care.

Here’s some links that might be helpful. The first one is about CA, but I suspect a VT extension agent might be able to refigure the calculations for the VT environment and terrain.

http://naparcd.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NRCS_HorseManagement-basiclandstewardship.pdf

The following link is an Oregon State publication which has a northerly climate but probably doesn’t have terrain as difficult to work with as VT. It might give you some ideas also.

http://www.msuextension.org/musselshell/PDF%20FILES/EquneSmallAcreFarms.pdf

I use to skate at a rink near Lyndonville. Can’t do that anymore. If I fall down now, these old bones of my will bust into a million pieces.:lol: VT is beautiful state, but the long winters, short growing seasons, dirth of sunlight, and lack of other amenities encouraged me to move back south to home state of VA.

Best of luck with your plans.

[AKB]

My daughter had 3 horses on 8 acres. When the lot next door came up for sale, she immediately bought it as she felt 8 acres was not enough. We have 3 horses on 5 acres. It works out, but is much more labor intensive than the daughter’s set up.

[HungarianHippo]

for draining the water at the end of hockey season, grade the arena surface so there’s a crown with both sides sloping away from it. Have drain plugs on the long sides, and when you release those the crown will ensure the water moves out to the edges.
Draining that large an area will dump a huge amt of water to the surrounding land all at once. When installing the arena, give serious thought to how to grade and limit erosion in that area.

I’d look into an underground rain cistern system to collect that drainage, and then re-use it to water your arena, or use for next year’s arena.

Consider whether all that water/ice weight for months at a time will cause excessive compaction to your arena surface? I don’t know if it would, but worth asking.

[RTF]

I personally do think you could do what you are looking for on 8 to 10 acres. I have ten horses on what you are describing on about 16 acres. That includes the house, lawn and outbuildings. We have ample pasture, and when my numbers are down to 8 horses, we have too much pasture. I also have a large outdoor, a small indoor, round pen, and a one acre grass riding field. I would recommend getting an aerial photo of any property so you can sketch out different options. Also, if you dry lot the horses, you can get more use out of pastures by keeping them in better shape. To be honest, we spend so much time on maintaining our property, I don’t always get to ride. There are times, I wish I had a little less upkeep, and a little more saddle time. I am fortunate to have close to 90 acres, but we only have the 16 acres for the horses.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=Frog Pond;7893978]
Lots of good advice here, but no one’s touched on the riding ring/hockey rink idea? That could be . . . a serious marital strain!! Before committing yourself, talk with an excavator and maybe an engineer to see how it would go :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

This would be doable, but I think it would require you to have a concrete base to your arena and a place to temporarily store your horse footing while the ring is used for ice (this is how the Verizon Center goes from hockey rink one day to WIHS a couple days later back to hockey rink). Or, you’d need to have a way to temporarily install a floor above the sand footing that you could drive your Zamboni on.

I’m kind of assuming that if you have a Zamboni to pull this off you can afford the materials involved, so the trick is going to be where do you store the temporary floor / footing when the area is not being used for what you need that floor or footing for?

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;7898250]
This would be doable, but I think it would require you to have a concrete base to your arena and a place to temporarily store your horse footing while the ring is used for ice (this is how the Verizon Center goes from hockey rink one day to WIHS a couple days later back to hockey rink). Or, you’d need to have a way to temporarily install a floor above the sand footing that you could drive your Zamboni on.

I’m kind of assuming that if you have a Zamboni to pull this off you can afford the materials involved, so the trick is going to be where do you store the temporary floor / footing when the area is not being used for what you need that floor or footing for?[/QUOTE]

It was mentioned earlier, but you can make a useable hockey rink with 2x4s and plastic sheeting. Just keep flooding it until you build up the ice. For maintenance, sweep and add more water.

Also, while the riding ring might be okay for this, you could simply use a level patch of lawn. I have seen a few set up like that - some even put up plywood boards like a real ice rink.

[GoodTimes]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;7898250]
This would be doable, but I think it would require you to have a concrete base to your arena and a place to temporarily store your horse footing while the ring is used for ice (this is how the Verizon Center goes from hockey rink one day to WIHS a couple days later back to hockey rink). Or, you’d need to have a way to temporarily install a floor above the sand footing that you could drive your Zamboni on.

I’m kind of assuming that if you have a Zamboni to pull this off you can afford the materials involved, so the trick is going to be where do you store the temporary floor / footing when the area is not being used for what you need that floor or footing for?[/QUOTE]

lol I’m assuming the OP’s husband is just looking for a place to skate on, some pick up games, etc. I shovelled off our pond today to use as a rink, no zamboni required. Growing up, my elementary school put up some boards, plywood on the ground covered in tarps, and flooded it.
The biggest issue with the rink will just be draining it in the spring, rain barrels of some sort are a good idea. I wouldn’t be too concerned about the weight of the ice causing compaction.

[showidaho]

If zoning is all a go, then it really depends on how much WORK you want to do…I say that after having lived on 20 acres in Calgary, 18 acres in Kansas, 9 acres in Connecticut, and now 300 in Montana. We have had between 4-8 horses the entire time. I can say, without a doubt, that Connecticut was the most difficult for many reasons (which are applicable to your Vermont location).

1. Less space means more man hours picking paddocks, mowing, fertilizing, maintaining, and more hands-on time with horses and fences, etc to maintain a lovely looking property.
2. Wet weather on a small acreage means you need to be prepared to drop some serious dough on all-weather sacrifice areas. They need to be constructed like an arena and in some cases will cost more than your arena. These areas must be painstakingly maintained (I cleaned mine daily, just like stalls and had special feeders and mats to keep hay off of my expensive surfaces…I also used the tractor to maintain the footing.). You also have to plan for water CAREFULLY. We installed a complex and again, expensive, drainage and water diversion system.
3. Horses love to be outside and with limited acreage comes limited turnout size. When we moved to Montana and turned out horses in huge fields they went totally nutty running and bucking! It was almost sad to see how much fun they were having and how much they enjoyed themselves after years on living in a limited turnout size (biggest paddock was maybe 1.5 acres because that’s just the way it worked out).
4. Fitness, I find, is easier to achieve and maintain as horses are turned out as much as possible on varying terrain. When living on limited space fitness was pretty reliant on me and my training, where as now they are fit, in part, due to their turnouts.

All of that said, you need to go with the best situation you can afford. If you plan to have horses for years my suggestion is to get as much useable land as you can afford. Best of luck and happy shopping!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

This summer 2.5 acres of grass with a horse, donkey and mini donk = continual mowing as they couldn’t keep up (always in at night though or they would explode). This winter they ate it down in about a week of daytime turnout and now are just on drylot, so I don’t loose it all by spring. I’m hoping we get some snow soon.

My point is there is a big difference in the land you need if you are willing to feed hay year round vs. if you plan on just feeding hay seasonally. Also, I think my pastures do pretty awesome in the summer, I imagine that varies and others would be supplementing 2.5 acres with hay in the summer too.

[S1969]

I’d say you should be looking at around 10 acres or more. But, if you’re looking at existing properties, I’d come up with a dollar amount versus an acreage amount you are seeking. You might find something really awesome at 8 acres, and something totally not worthy of buying at 12…for the same price. All depends on layout and existing structures (or lack thereof).

My barn setup is smaller than your ideal and is on only about 4.5 acres even though I have 20 - smaller ring, 3 stall barn and two sheds, a decent sized dry lot, and smaller pastures. But, I just happen to have 5 horses of which 4 would be happier and healthier if they stayed on a dry lot for the rest of their lives (a mini, a Cushings pony, and two super easy keepers.) So, if I had to go smaller on anything - I might go smaller on pastures. What you might pay for the extra land might not be worth it…but you would be capable of feeding hay for much cheaper. (Or, in some parts of the country, that might be reverse – cheaper to buy pasture than feed hay.) Plus more pasture means more fencing and more maintenance to keep that pasture decent as a primary food supply. We considered fencing in another big pasture, but between having to make it work well – fencing, grading, planting – and the fact that my horses will be obese if I turn them out there…it’s just not worth it. So we have a big empty field instead.

[kerlin]

Thanks, everyone, for your continued & excellent feedback! Lots of food for thought here, including some really good ideas about how to manage the hockey rink possibility. I’d love if we have enough level land to put it on the lawn, but in Vermont, we’ll see. We definitely won’t go anywhere as fancy as removing footing and having a concrete base - just find some kind of system that would go on top of a level arena. I hadn’t thought about the compaction question but that’s something to investigate for sure. I also like the idea of gathering the runoff water and re-using it as gray water elsewhere.

Any place we find is going to be a balance of a lot of variables. I drove by a property last week that looked terrific on paper - 12 acres, nice house, good location, access to further fields for riding - and knew immediately it would be terrible for horses. If we can’t find the right place this spring & summer we’ll get a smaller house in the village, work on paying that down, and then have more capital to bargain with in 5 more years or so.

I feel that I’m reasonably familiar with the challenges of horsekeeping in Vermont in particular and New England in general - I’ve worked at and ridden out of a variety of different properties up here and have some good friends who have small farms advising me. I’m trying to get as much input as possible from smart people before I make any permanent decisions - this will be our first house, so I’d rather not get into anything I can’t adjust or undo!