How much time to give a rider/trainer?

[tohorse]

What’s an appropriate timeline for expecting progress in a horse’s training if you send them to a “pro”?

I’m pregnant and cannot ride my not-so-easy mare. When I was last riding her a few months ago she was going pretty nice and certainly didn’t see the kind of regressions I’ve witnessed with a rider that I sent her out to tune her up before my baby arrives. I’m a bit at loss, because the rider thinks there is a physical issue - we’ve brought out bodyworkers, different bits, floated teeth etc. to test all the hypotheses. As of now, I’m on with the program, but to be fair I’ve vetted the horse (admittedly last year) extensively, teeth has been done twice this year, saddle fitter has been out and all. No red flags so I am fairly skeptical that this is health-related and I’m pretty inclined to believe it’s a riding issue, mostly because a few months ago the horse was going fine with me. I’ve been trying to give feedback and give ideas around how I used to ride her, but the rider is not very receptive and takes some offense in this.

I understand this is individual, but I’m trying to understand what’s a long enough time to give someone a good chance to discover a physical issue and/or develop rapport with a less than straightforward, green horse. When would you stop looking at hypothetical health issues and just remove the rider? I understand that this can also be fairly touchy so assuming that I go ahead with this, how would you go about the conversation without hurting anyone’s feelings?

[Bluey]

@tohorse

What’s an appropriate timeline for expecting progress in a horse’s training if you send them to a “pro”?

I’m pregnant and cannot ride my not-so-easy mare. When I was last riding her a few months ago she was going pretty nice and certainly didn’t see the kind of regressions I’ve witnessed with a rider that I sent her out to tune her up before my baby arrives. I’m a bit at loss, because the rider thinks there is a physical issue - we’ve brought out bodyworkers, different bits, floated teeth etc. to test all the hypotheses. As of now, I’m on with the program, but to be fair I’ve vetted the horse (admittedly last year) extensively, teeth has been done twice this year, saddle fitter has been out and all. No red flags so I am fairly skeptical that this is health-related and I’m pretty inclined to believe it’s a riding issue, mostly because a few months ago the horse was going fine with me. I’ve been trying to give feedback and give ideas around how I used to ride her, but the rider is not very receptive and takes some offense in this.

I understand this is individual, but I’m trying to understand what’s a long enough time to give someone a good chance to discover a physical issue and/or develop rapport with a less than straightforward, green horse. When would you stop looking at hypothetical health issues and just remove the rider? I understand that this can also be fairly touchy so assuming that I go ahead with this, how would you go about the conversation without hurting anyone’s feelings?

The time to start making necessary changes is as soon as you realize, as you seem to there, that things are not adding up and, after trying other, all is left to try is to change venue/rider/training program.

When your sixth sense puts up flags, as it has now, that is when you sit up and take notice.

How to handle tender toes you will inevitably be stepping on?
Think about your horse, that comes first, then maybe just make your request for changes part of management, leaving emotions, your worry, out of it if you can.
You are the conductor of this orchestra, you decide how to play it next.

[clanter]

@tohorse

What’s an appropriate timeline for expecting progress in a horse’s training if you send them to a “pro”?

this really depends upon the ultimate goal and the horse’s growth

we bought a long yearling who we left with with the trainer, the horse was there just about two years as she kept meeting the goals that we established. We met with the trainer periodically to review the horse’s progress and to outline what to do next. The trainer was excellent, they took very good care of the horse, progress was continuous without plateaus

[js]

@tohorse

I’ve been trying to give feedback and give ideas around how I used to ride her, but the rider is not very receptive and takes some offense in this.

Is the “rider” in the quote the pro? Is this rider an actual trainer or just someone that rides at a professional level? A person can be a pro but not necessarily a good trainer with green horses or not easy to ride horses. If this pro isn’t working out then look for a good trainer that is experienced with green and not easy to ride horses. The sooner you do this the better for your horse. If you had the horse going nicely and now she isn’t with the pro, you don’t want to leave her in this situation, when you’re ready to ride again you may have some long term issues that you’ll have to deal with. Find someone that clicks with your horse and your horse likes. No need to step on the individual’s toes, just nicely state that it isn’t working out and move your horse, if they aren’t professional enough to understand then that’s on them.

[WildGooseChase]

No equine professional should get offended or be closed minded, at feedback and history on a horse. This sounds like a trainer that does things their way, no matter if it’s not the best for the horse. I would be pulling my horse out of there. Time off is better than bad handling and training.

[Ruth0552]

Not only can a “pro” not be a great trainer, but there are definitely adult ammys that are better than some “pros.” Both because there are “pros” that aren’t very good and because there are ammys that are VERY good.

If I was you, I’d pull the horse. Tell the rider you’re going to give the horse some time off. It sounds like the trainer/rider might be in your barn? If so, give the horse a month off and then find someone else to start her up again. If the horse is a resident at a trainers, you can just pull the horse and move it somewhere else.

And yeah, not being responsive to feedback and suggestions is not a great sign.

[B-burg_Dressage]

I’d rather have my horse sit and do nothing than regress with a trainer.

It sounds like you’re fairly certain it isn’t health/physical issues. It would be very hard to watch my horse get worse while I was paying someone to make it better.

Give her a little time off and look for a new trainer to ride while you’re pregnant.

I’d give someone a couple weeks to get them to know each other, but after a couple months I’d expect to at least see a positive relationship between the two of them.

[beowulf]

@tohorse

cannot ride my not-so-easy mare

Why is the horse not-so-easy? What is she not-so-easy about? Sticky in the contact? Explosive? Dead to the aids?

It’s very hard to give a meaningful answer, IMHO. Like you’re aware, it depends on the rider, your goals, the program, the horse, its level of training before you dropped it off, its soundness, etc…

But what changed when you were riding versus now? Less turnout, more? Different tack? Different farrier? Any past issues of soundness that might come to the forefront? Remember… We cannot rule out pain, only confirm it. If a rider thinks it is pain related, that is usually a good sign… It means they are conscientious and aware: I would rather too conservative in that department versus the many riders who say ‘eh, he will work through it.’

Do you have any videos of the horse, then and now?

So many things change when a horse changes hands… Sometimes what is okay for a horse in one situation is intolerable in the next… Years ago, I free leased a solid BN packer to an eventing barn run by a professional in my area. The pro came very well recommended to me by PC people. He was a nice horse that I’d ridden for about 5 years before life got a bit too busy to juggle 3 horses in a program. The pro and her students came to ride him, and I should have pulled the plug then since I noticed the pro struggled with him more than her students… but I sent him off anyway. He needed a job, and one of the kids did really well with him and clearly loved him right then and there. About a month later the pro called me that they were dropping him off that day and he was untrainable. Didn’t sound like the horse I knew, but okay. She returned him and he was unrecognizable to me… eyes bugging out of his head, needed a chain shank just to lead him out of the trailer… I’d never even put a chain on this horse… It took me about three months to get him back to his normal, sane self… I don’t know what they did to him, but they fried his brains out. He went back out on lease after I got him settled in and went to a lovely 18 y/o who did really well with him. Sometimes the management or riding style just doesn’t jive with the horse.

I generally want to trust the word of the people I’m paying. And I’ll listen to what they have to say, within reason. I think it’s worth going and seeing this person ride a few times a week, and figuring out of the horse is really backsliding or if – and be honest with yourself – this is a difficult horse with holes in its training. In training it is almost always darkest before dawn - you don’t always get clean and linear progress. Sometimes you have to deconstruct or untrain some things and in that moment it can look ugly while those holes are filled in.

Other times, it’s like my horse above and the rider just doesn’t jive. Watch, observe, and trust your gut.

[candyappy]

@tohorse

When I was last riding her a few months ago she was going pretty nice and certainly didn’t see the kind of regressions I’ve witnessed with a rider that I sent her out to tune her up before my baby arrives.

Sometimes a trainer is a bad fit for the horse they are trying to ride. Instead of owing up to this I wonder if the trainer is trying to blame their shortcomings/ failings on a health issue?

I would remove my horse immediately from this person, let her have some time off until you can ride her yourself and see what happens That is just what I would do if she was mine.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I’m with @beowulf - I don’t know if we have enough information to give you a good answer.

Not all riders - even good ones - know how to ride a young, green horse. That takes some skill, feel, and experience. But the fact that the rider thinks there’s a physical issue also tells me that they’re tuned in to the horse and are feeling something when they ride. What is the behavior that is causing them to think that she’s in pain - and you to feel she’s regressing? Have you thought about kissing spine or arthritis in the hocks, just to throw out a couple of more things? Hock issues are what caused my 13-year old greenie to suddenly start throwing temper tantrums under saddle. Once we injected the hocks, he was fine.

The fact that the rider doesn’t seem to want your input as to how to ride her makes me also think there’s something about how she’s being ridden that’s making her act out (if that’s what she’s doing). Does she expect a lot of contact, whereas you rode on a more loose rein? Does she mainly sit the trot, rather than post? It’s hard to know from your description what might be happening.

If you choose to pull the mare (having looked at all the other things others have mentioned, including a change in feed (which could trigger EPSM), turnout time, etc., then I’d just tell the rider that you don’t feel comfortable having her in work while she seems to be uncomfortable, so you plan to bring her home and turn her out for six months and see what happens. There’s nothing offensive or rude about wanting to do what’s best for your horse.

[BrendaJane]

frankly, I am leery at all the riders who’s first course of actio is to call a vet/dentist/chiro vs looking at themselves for the poor performance of a horse.

I think 9 times out of 10 it’s pilot error. The body work is just an expensive smokescreen.

you know the answer before you even asked.

[tohorse]

Her biggest “problem” is that she’s very sensitive and on the neurotic side. It’s a horse you can ride just off the seat. She is very smart, but can also get overwhelmed easily when too much is thrown at her. No spook, buck, rear, bolt, but will toss her head, walk sideways or back up and start lifting the front (though never full-on rear) if she’s at her wit’s end - a bit like the horse in that unfortunate pentathlon video. I wouldn’t put her in the 1% or even top 5% in terms of finesse required from the rider, but she’s easily in the top quarter.
She has a lot of try, but needs a tactful and well-balanced rider, as when she’s off-balance she will try to 1) accelerate 2) if 1 doesn’t work then toss head 3) won’t let you hang on the rein by trying to pull out 4) will attempt to hide behind the bit if 1 or 2 won’t work and you’re still hanging. If not corrected, this will progressively work her up.
I 100% agree on the pain issue which is why I’ve been patiently footing the bill for essentially the same set of diagnostics I did when I got the horse in the first place. I can’t really rule out that the horse is in pain, but even if she has some soreness, my gut says that’s unlikely “it”. Here’s why:

• She gladly lets you mount and is very patient at the mounting block even when not held / standing on a loose rein.
• When I test rode her it was a bit hairy at the beginning, but progressed over the course of that single ride and then exponentially over the course of 60 days I had her on trial.
• I’ve witnessed her behavior deteriorate to what I described above with me under a few circumstances: 1) trail riding when I’m trying to control her pace especially on the way home 2) large group settings with other horses 3) learning something new (e.g. accepting steady contact, lateral flex, but once she gets it, she hardly if ever revisits). This to me suggests that it’s more likely a confidence/trust/training rather than a physical issue. Also worth noting, I’ve personally never witnessed any of the acting up, so maybe I just have a different level of tolerance.
• No soundness issues to speak about. At some point in winter she had beaten herself up in the paddock and I suspected it was a suspensory, but the ultrasound was clean and after 2-3 weeks of stall/small paddock rest she was slowly brought back into work. Bringing her back into work after stall rest was a bit of a challenge, but a month or two later she was going better than ever before. The PPE x-rays were clean too if that matters. The vet said I might need to inject hocks due to her hind conformation in a few years, but nothing to worry about now.
• ETA: My sense is the rider thinks there is some physical issue because there can be a big discrepancy between the rides, i.e. one day she is great, next day she is fussy. I know she has this tendency (don’t we all to an extent…), but my answer to that issue was to focus on settling (establish rhythm-> relaxation in that order) her first and then asking however much feels appropriate that day. It seemed to work.

I fully acknowledge that this horse is far from a leadline pony and needs someone competent, which is why I opted out of a partial lease and similar options offered to me, as I could totally see this going South quickly. Then again why would this risk be any different when sending the horse out to a person who does this for a living. The only question left is - are we in the thick of it or should I pull the horse now.

I’ll send you videos in PM if you don’t mind, as I don’t want to publish other people’s riding out in the public.

[BrendaJane]

almost all horses are perfectly fine to hang out in the pasture
We think they need a job, most of them would disagree.
It is easier to start at zero than to climb back up to the strating point.

I don’t know your situation, how well she behaves on the ground etc…

Many years ago we had a horse at a trainer’s (racing but you know)
After a particular hard race she went off the feed and the trainer waived concerns off.
We brought ehr home shortly after.
Because when you know, you know.

[beowulf]

My experience, worth what you paid for it, is that 9 out of 10 times the horse is not truly sound. Many horses are “servicably sound” - that is to say, they have bodily complaints yet their QOL is not greatly diminished by them being useful to their owners. For most, it is better than the alternative of being PTS or ending up in a kill lot.

Speaking from the vantage of someone who has held the reins on the sidelines for many professionals in the industry, it’s my impression few jump right away on the presumption that Dobbin is in pain. It’s a big loss of income for them to put that horse on the backburner. In the “H/J model” which has overtaken my sport, the horse is trained 2-3x a week by pro, ridden in lessons 1-2x a week by the owner, and then shown regularly by the pro. Using the industry standard fees in my area ($70 training rides, $80 lessons, $100 trailer fees, $100 show riding fee) that’s $220-370 a week in lesson/training fees and anywhere from $200-500 in weekend show fees. One can understand why this model is becoming so popular in boarding barns, because boarding hardly recoups the cost[s] associated with keeping multiple horses on a property. One can also understand (albeit not endorse, ethically speaking) why a pro might not be so quick to pull the trigger on putting Dobbin on stall-rest with this model.

If that sounds myopic, well, it is… but it’s been my experience.

OP was kind enough to share her videos via PM. After watching the videos I believe her concerns about regression are quite valid. I don’t want to share much more out of respect of OP’s privacy but do think these situations are very tough and sometimes it is even harder to read the writing on the wall when you are in the thick of it.

[SuzieQNutter]

For me. I know by the time they are going to mount. I have stopped a rider mounting in the past and said this is not the horse for you. That did not go well!

[Willesdon]

A good professional rider should start to improve the horse within minutes of mounting. Watch Charlotte Dujardin being a test rider for European stud books.

[BrendaJane]

@beowulf

My experience, worth what you paid for it, is that 9 out of 10 times the horse is not truly sound. Many horses are “servicably sound” - that is to say, they have bodily complaints yet their QOL is not greatly diminished by them being useful to their owners. For most, it is better than the alternative of being PTS or ending up in a kill lot.

But what was first, the chicken or the egg.
Was the horse unsound because of bad riding, or did it make the rider look bad.

And yet again, it is the human’s failure.
Seems what you see is the rider waiting long enough util it is a problem.

I don’t know the answer, but I think the OP jusy needed her suspicions confirmed.

And precious few horses need to work vs standing in a field.

I hope she gets it sorted.

[CoolCats]

I had a mare who sounds like yours and when I got her, I wanted to lay the foundation for dressage, but I worked full time and wasn’t able to get to the barn as regularly as I would have liked. There was a trainer/instructor there who seemed to have done a nice job with her own horse, so I asked her if she would be interested in working with my mare during the week. She was up for it and started working with Ms. Mare the following week.

One day I was able to get out to the barn to watch a session. I wasn’t 100% thrilled with how she was riding my mare, but thought that perhaps it was just me ~ my lack of knowledge. After a couple of weeks, I noticed a distinct change in my mare and not a good change. I decided it wasn’t the right match - but in actuality, the rider was not teaching the mare the basics I had hoped for, the rider was making the horse go the way she wanted the mare to go. 2 different things. Once I ended the “training” and started working with Ms. Mare and allowed her to “learn” instead of making her “do”, we made progress and Ms. Mare learned what I was asking and tried her heart out and became the horse I had always thought she could be. We learned together!

I guess the point is that they didn’t get along because the “trainer” just tried to make her do what she wanted the mare to do, the way she wanted it done - she didn’t try to work with the horse and teach the horse. I am a firm believer that if a horse doesn’t do or understand what you’re asking - you need to find a different way to ask the question.