Im moving towards hiring someone to do daily cleanups for the 3 horses in our fields and stalls. Most of the time, the horses are outside (we have sheds). But when the winter gets nasty or cold, I move them to the barn,
Just curious what the going rate is for stall or small field cleanups. Im feeding them myself so this is just a question on paying for stall and field cleanups.
L
Will depend on what other jobs around you pay. Thereâs no ârightâ number, you just have to find what the market will bear, so that a good employee chooses to work for you rather than for some other job.
Educate yourself on IRS law regarding employees and associated tax and liability issues. Hereâs a good summary on how to tell whether the person who does this work would be considered an employee. If you provide the tools, and direct how and when the work is done, then in the eyes of IRS that person is probably an employee. If this person carries their own tools/equipment, and offers comparable work to the general public (think: landscaping company that mows lawns) then theyâre probably not an emooyee.
Are the Feds likely to come after you, if you just pay under the table? No, almost certainly. But what if that person you hire falls and injures him/herself, they can say itâs a workplace accident and come afer you for workersâ comp?.
This is something you might want to run by a laywer or your tax advisor, to see if there are ways you can structure this so that you donât become an âemployerâ
check with some of the dog walkers in your area, I ran an internet search for pet care in the city you have listed as your location and there were many⊠these would be sub contractors not employees
Thanks Hungarian HippoâŠIâve been retired from a long career in Human Resources Management in aerospace going on 10 yrs (sheesh where did the tie go ?)
And you reminded me of the difference between a contractor and am employee. I think Im fine treating him as a contractor. Appreciate the infput.
L
Actually, I think it would be very hard to argue that a stall/pasture cleaner meets the definition of an independent contractor Of course if the worker provides his/her own tools and can do the work however or whenever he likes, then you might have an argument for it.
Agree Ironwood, but thereâs probably enough wiggle room in the structure to ensure itâs a contractor arrangement. Provide a âhiring bonusâ for example for this person, with the understanding that they must buy their own tools for the job. Require them to provide a certificate of insurance (and up the salary as needed to cover their costs to do so). Have a contract payment based on milestones, rather than payroll-type payment based on hours worked, etc etc.
Require the stall cleaner to provide a certificate of insurance? :eek:
If anyone gave a âhiring bonusâ to most of the stall cleaners Iâve known⊠theyâd never see them again. :lol:
Payment based on milestones, also called âpiece-workâ, might be illegal in some circumstances
I have never ever known a stall cleaner to bring their own fork and wheel barrow. Much less a tractor, or 4 wheeler, to drag the pasture.
OP you need to consult an attorney licensed in Ca.
dog walker most likely already carries Animal Bailee Coverage, just expand the job description a little to include some sort of responsibility of care such as looking at the horses to make sure they are OK while cleaning the pastures
picking horse poop and deposing is no different than picking up dog poop and deposing
You need to be more clear, OP.
How often? How many hours per work session is this? What does the barn labor get paid in your neck of the woods?
And you might pause before getting very elaborate with respect to having folks buy their own equipment or insurance (!) so as to be able to shovel shit at your place.
As much as this seems like a minor job to you, and therefore not a problem to do and not worth a whole lot of money, those same attributes make it unattractive to someone who wants to work for pay! Remember that it takes time and money to commute to your place to do a quick job for not much money each time. As every factory owner knows, you pay far more for small, one-off jobs than for whole huge batches of them. It seems odd, but some jobs are so ânot worthwhileâ that you have to pay more than the work is worth in order to get someone with some reliability and work ethic to take them at all!
That said, a buddy of mine does it this way: She buys herself Sundays off from pasture cleaning. That means she might skip Saturday, too, and leave some extra for the person who comes to do that job on Sundays. She pays the gal cash and guarantees here X hours of work, no matter what. Sometimes that means all cleaning of the extra-dirty pastures. Sometimes that might mean helping the farm owner with another odd job. And sometimes, that means the worker gets overpaid because the farm owner had time to clean the pastures ok on Saturday. In all cases, the farm owner is kind and appreciative to the cleaner. She also lets the cleaner set her own schedule on that Sunday. There is an envelope of cash waiting whenever it gets done, just so long as it gets done.
My point in relaying the details of this story is to offer an example of some âoutside the boxâ thinking and details of treating an employee well that make this all work out for this pair of people. Itâs barely about picking an hourly wage.
Dog walking usually entails taking someone elseâs pet off that personâs property and being in total charge of that animal for the duration of the walk
Stall pasture cleaning is done on the property with little or no contact with the animal necessary to complete the task.
Picking up dog poop requires a disposable bag.
Stall/pasture picking requires using tools that cost money and most be maintained in working order.
Actually my âdog walkerâ never took my puppy off my property. We used a âdog walkerâ from the time our lab was 9 weeks old until he was 5 months old. In part to help with house breaking and in part to get rid of energy. We have a fenced yard so she would bring him out at lunch, make sure he did his business and play ball for almost an hour. She would pick up the yard while she was there.
While I agree that a muck fork/pitch fork/muck tub/wheel barrow cost money there isnât much maintenance involved. Okay maybe put some air in the tire if it isnât a solid tire wheelbarrow and tighten the occasional nut/bolt.
The basic concept is still the same between a dog walker and stall/field picker. They pick up poop.
I supplied the gloves to my âdog walkerâ and the bucket and a poop fork. However she could set what time she came to the house. It was normally a few hour window but we didnât tell you she had to be there everyday at noon. Some days she was there for 45 minutes sometimes an hour. Her time depended on how hot it was and how fast puppy tired out. So what if a stall cleaner/field cleaner doesnât have contact or control of the horse? Plenty of people do the stalls with the horse in the stall so they would have contact with the horse. I donât see how that changes if they are an employee or not. Having a dog walker service pick field poop and clean some stalls is actually a good idea. Heck the horse manure smells better than dog poop. If you want them to buy their own muck tub/wheelbarrow and fork they can keep it at the farm as long as the BO knows that when the relationship terminates the supplies go with the contractor.
My housekeeper comes every two weeks. Generally on the same day of the week. But she sets the time and the schedule. She brings cleaning rags, duster, her vacuum. I supply the cleaning solutions to her specification and the wet mop. I certainly consider her a contractor. She sets her own schedule and brings some of her supplies. However because I supply some of the cleaning supplies I could see where contractor versus employee is grey. However she picked what day of the week she comes and will sometimes change it due to other commitments. I would think a dog walker/stall cleaner/house sitter can fall in a similar grey area.
@SonnysMom I would respectfully say you had in-home doggy day care, (not dog walking). by someone qualified to do both.
A lot of the tool maintenance depends on the surface of the pasture needing to be pick up, if it is rocky, weedy or un-level pitch forks, muck buckets, and wheel barrows can break on a regular basis and need repair/replacing. Mud, snow, and freezing weather can cause deterioration, but the last two are less of an issue in Ca.
A dog walker is in direct control of the animal via a tether of some type, a stall cleaner is not.
In many states, because taking the dogs off property is a normal part of their job, to advertise their professional services, dog walkers must be licensed, insured, and bonded, Stall muckers are not usually regulated.
Dog walkers, house-sitters, stall cleaners and maids, all have persons engaging in them that are paid cash under the table and who are not official tax paying businesses. That does not make them âprivate contractorsâ.
How one one person might define a âprivate contractorâ and what the government of each state, here in the USA, (and the governments of the other countries COTH posters hail from) considers âprivate contractorsâ can be different. That is why consulting an attorney lisenced where one lives is the best option.
Minimum wage/hour is fair, if you provide all the tools, and the horses are well mannered.
If you offer that and donât get any takers you will know the local price is higher.
I find that the cheap help, who are not committed to doing the quality of work I want, cost me more in broken equip., bedding, stress, and unhappy animals, than do well paid workers who feel valued.
I would rather do the work myself than hand my hard earned money to someone who doesnât give a hoot. YMMV
I donât think you can get a workers comp policy or even general liability for much under $1,000/year.
The problem is you need to pay enough for someone to take the trouble of driving for that one or two hours of work. Iâm paying a lady $30/day to muck out two stalls, hay and water two horses, sweep the small barn, and bandage (BOT quick wrap) a horse that is on stall rest. She comes in the morning and we do evening chore ourselves. It probably takes her one hour each day. If we ask her to do more, we will pay more. Having done field pick up myself, it is far more difficult than stall pick up.
By the way, there is no way I will ask her to bring her own shovels. That is justâŠ
OP what you will pay will depend on your location and the market. Check with your local barns and see what they pay, then you may wish to add a little on top to ensure you are competitive. In our area $12-$15 an hour is the norm. Minimum wage is $10.40 here but youâd never find someone willing to muck fields and stalls for that rate.
If you have less than a full day of work, you may need to pay substantially more per hour to compensation for gas money.
OP is in California or least that is the location indicated⊠more than 2.5 million illegal aliens reside there, most are in southern California ⊠so they kind of donât really follow âthe lawâ there its whatever is good humanity or something like that
OP I would not bet your farm on the above statement
Whether or not you are in independent contractor is determined by the IRS, not the state. And even if a person is NOT an âofficial tax paying businessâ that person is still subject to personal income tax law, and should be sent a 1099 if paid $600 or more a year. Here is the link to the test:
And the employer who misclassified the employee as an independent contractor can be held liable for the taxes owed:
âIf you classify an employee as an independent contractor and you have no reasonable basis for doing so, you may be held liable for employment taxes for that worker (the relief provisions, discussed below, will not apply). See Internal Revenue Code section 3509 for more information.â
This winter, before my last surgery, I hired the local handyman/odd jobs guy to pick my pastures and do other odd jobs. I consider it an independent contractor relationship because he is in business for himself, advertises, has a long list of other clients, and will contact me and ask me if I need work done that week or advertise that heâs running a special on car washing or dump runs or something similar. He sets his schedule, not me.
I paid him and his friend $15 an hour, cash, to pick paddocks and added a tip on top. Hubby drove the tractor and FEL, handyman and co. hustled and picked. They also cleaned the nest boxes in the chicken coop for the same price.
I feel like that was fair and money well spent. As someone said above, you have pay more for piece work and grubby work than you might for an hourly wage for 40 hours a week. I really, really like this young man and give him any work I can because heâs smart, hard working and definitely filling a need.
Youâre in California, so both the labor pool and the prevailing rate may vary.
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