How Much Would You Pay? (Lease/Buy) UPDATE

[bringing_up_baby]

I’ve been lurking on these threads and find them quite interesting and informative.

I saw recently that someone posted a thread that is similar to this and I just wanted some advice and opinions.

Having leased horses in the past, I know that breeding, training time put in, conformation, good brain, and mainly show records are what influence sales and lease prices.

There is a horse that can jump up to 1.40m, but not regularly. A solid 1.25m horse. Can do shoulder-in, haunches-in, leg yield (and probably a half-pass if worked on), changes, and counter canter…which is usually a rarity for jumpers. Doesn’t spook, has a good brain, and will take care of you. Show record for USEF for one year shows that almost every show the horse didn’t place…from 1.10m-1.45m.

Asking sales price is $45k. Lease for 1 year is $35k and 6 months is $20k. Going by the standard 1/3 rule for leasing, this is extremely high price for a horse that has an un-commendable show record. If it was a champion horse, I could see paying up to 50% of sale value, but this isn’t that kind of horse. Following the formula, it should be $7,500 for 6 months. We offered a few thousand more and were turned down. (They really want to sell the horse but are open to leases, but you are penalized for going that route.)

What would you think of this situation? What do you think is a fair price? I know it is all relative. Just wanted to pick the brains of the knowledgeable folks of COTH!

[westie55]

I think the higher up the ranks you go, the less accurate the 1/3 rule becomes. Every situation is different, of course, but in my experience most (all, actually) lease prices I’ve encountered while shopping in the past have been north (even well north) of 1/3 of the purchase price for year leases, and progressively higher as the lease duration shortened. In other words, a six month lease is rarely only 1/6 of the purchase price. You pay a higher premium on leases of shorter duration. When I’ve marketed horses in the past, my sale prices also were usually the best value because a sale was my preference and presented me with the least amount of risk. Having been burned on leases in the past, I’ve always been much more willing to seriously negotiate a sale price than to heavily discount a lease price because it just hasn’t been worth it to me to risk leasing for under a certain price given my financial situation at various times. My bottom line on sale prices were often extremely reasonable if not downright aggressive because I needed to move a horse quickly, but my bottom line on lease prices didn’t necessarily match, and might’ve seemed out of whack if the two were compared. My point is that every seller has a unique situation and it can be hard to follow a formula. When I shop, I base my opinion of whether a lease price is reasonable on how it compares to what else I can get for that price in the market, not on how the lease price compares to a horse’s purchase price. Without any more details, 45k doesn’t sound top dollar for a well-schooled horse who packs at 1.25m and can go to 1.45m. It may not be worth it to the owner to risk the wear and tear on the horse competing at that level can cause for only around $7,500 or slightly more. It’s all a numbers game and sellers have an amount they can live with and buyers have an amount they can live with. If for the same amount of money you can find better options that are in line with what what you’re looking for, this isn’t a good price for you. But it may be a good price for someone else.

[joiedevie99]

Is the horse older? I’ve seen leases that were well over 50% of the sale price on older horses - because the lessee got to “use up” on of the last competitive years of the horse without carrying any of the financial burden of retirement or risk of (increasingly likely) injury.

[ElisLove]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8160105]

There is a horse that can jump up to 1.40m, but not regularly. A solid 1.25m horse. Can do shoulder-in, haunches-in, leg yield (and probably a half-pass if worked on), changes, and counter canter…which is usually a rarity for jumpers. [/QUOTE]

Those basic flatwork exercises are ‘a rarity for jumpers’? Whoops, I guess I’ve been training all my horses wrong and so has virtually all the other jumper riders I’ve ever seen!

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=joiedevie99;8160273]
Is the horse older? I’ve seen leases that were well over 50% of the sale price on older horses - because the lessee got to “use up” on of the last competitive years of the horse without carrying any of the financial burden of retirement or risk of (increasingly likely) injury.[/QUOTE]

I can definitely see your point if the horse was an older, seasoned champion campaigner, but that isn’t the case here. The horse just hit double digits in age. I’m not even interested or would be showing. Horses are certainly capable of jumping 1.20m twice, maybe on occasion thrice, a week. Horses aren’t that fragile if properly taken care of.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=ElisLove;8160298]
Those basic flatwork exercises are ‘a rarity for jumpers’? Whoops, I guess I’ve been training all my horses wrong and so has virtually all the other jumper riders I’ve ever seen![/QUOTE]

Well, it’s a huge rarity in my area. Out of 4 leases and other sales horses I’ve tried, none could perform any of those moves, or had to be “wrangled” into a shoulder-in, etc as they had no previous education. One leased 1.35m jumper from way out of state didn’t even have changes. It seems like people mainly want to get on, jump, and go show, unfortunately. Wish there were more people and actual trainers like you in my area. I think every rider and horse should have 3rd Level dressage training as basic. Personally, I ride 4th Level/PSG.

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8160492]
I can definitely see your point if the horse was an older, seasoned champion campaigner, but that isn’t the case here. The horse just hit double digits in age. I’m not even interested or would be showing. Horses are certainly capable of jumping 1.20m twice, maybe on occasion thrice, a week. Horses aren’t that fragile if properly taken care of.[/QUOTE]

I’d guess that they just aren’t really interested in leasing and would prefer to sell.
I’d assume that the lease prices also would be applied to purchase price. I mean people can charge what they want, and it sounds like they really want a purchase or at least a lease with most likely a purchase at the end. I’ve seen similar % for that kind of scenario before. I mean people can ask for/charge what they want

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8160492]
I can definitely see your point if the horse was an older, seasoned champion campaigner, but that isn’t the case here. The horse just hit double digits in age. I’m not even interested or would be showing. Horses are certainly capable of jumping 1.20m twice, maybe on occasion thrice, a week. Horses aren’t that fragile if properly taken care of.[/QUOTE]

Even the most properly care for of horses can break down at any moment. With it’s show record, was it ridden by an AM or a pro? If you aren’t interested in showing, why bother with looking up the show records. Chances are, if it is ammy friendly and can jump pretty big and is well schooled on the flat, they want to sell it (rather than carry the burden of leasing it). Maybe it is priced a little high for your area, but if it can do all that and more and take care of an ammy, it’s probably worth its price.

Also, most higher level horses (and lover level) should be doing those moves. Just watch a GM clinic! It’s not rare or frowned upon. They may not be ready to go compete in a 4th level class at a Dressage show, but they should be able to do them well. My horse can do a shoulder in, kind of half passes, changes his lead when I actually balance him, and we are only jumping 2’6 - 2’9.

[soloudinhere]

why lease at all if you aren’t planning to show? You don’t sound like a teenager who is going to outgrow or go to college. Do you just like having a new horse every 6 months?

If you’re not showing it seems like you’d get more financial value out of just buying the horse that you want.

[BostonHJ]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8160492]
Horses are certainly capable of jumping 1.20m twice, maybe on occasion thrice, a week. Horses aren’t that fragile if properly taken care of.[/QUOTE]

And this is why the lease is so expensive. The owners are likely worried the lessor would jump the horse into the ground and are charging accordingly. I can’t think of any reputable program that is going to have a horse jump 1.2m at home twice a week, much less three times.

[vxf111]

Sounds like they just don’t really want to lease and therefore would only consider it for a windfall type sum. That’s fine, if they prefer to sell. It’s their call. I’d look for a different horse. This isn’t really about whether your offer was in a reasonable range or not, it’s about the fact that they really, really, REALLY prefer to sell.

[dags]

On another note, unless there were routinely only 6 in a class I wouldn’t be completely put off by the DNPs on a jumper’s record. If it’s only got a year of showing under its belt there’s a good chance they were aiming for consistency and fluidity, rather than ribbons. Especially in the 1.10m classes… if you’re winning 1.10m classes chances are you’re sacrificing a lot of poise to do so. I know a number of trainers that take their sale jumpers to the shows to continue to get them in the ring, but aren’t going to run their legs off for a ribbon. Especially a thoroughly well-educated 1.40m horse that’s just waiting for his kid, he still goes & does the 1.30m & 1.35m to stay tuned, but seller doesn’t feel a need to chase him just to beat 50+ top jumpers in Kentucky. So yeah, his record looks like crap, but his brain and legs are well-preserved for the buyer.

On the flip side, are you shopping for a 1.25m jumper for ~10kish/year? That level of risk is highly unlikely to appeal to any horse owner.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=dags;8160784]
On another note, unless there were routinely only 6 in a class I wouldn’t be completely put off by the DNPs on a jumper’s record. If it’s only got a year of showing under its belt there’s a good chance they were aiming for consistency and fluidity, rather than ribbons. Especially in the 1.10m classes… if you’re winning 1.10m classes chances are you’re sacrificing a lot of poise to do so. I know a number of trainers that take their sale jumpers to the shows to continue to get them in the ring, but aren’t going to run their legs off for a ribbon.[/QUOTE]

Exactly - the ones consistently winning at the low levels are not the most valuable horses in the class.

And $45K for a horse with its training seems like a bargain.

[MorganJumper848]

I’m with others here on the price. I’m not sure what age the horse is which could make a huge difference but leasing a jumper doing over 1.20m has huge risks. Anything competing at those heights and that takes acre of you has a lot of value. If you don’t like the terms, move on to another horse and only look at ones that are within you lease price range. Most people with horses at that level aren’t going to take the risk of that horse coming back sore or worn out without a decent amount of compensation. We all know that caring for a horse long term is expensive.

[bambam]

[QUOTE=bringing_up_baby;8160105]

(They really want to sell the horse but are open to leases, but you are penalized for going that route.)[/QUOTE] They would rather sell and sounds like they have priced a lease at the point at which it would make it worth it to them to lease instead of sell. Below that amount, the risk you take that you end up with an injured or unsellable horse after the lease is not worth it to them. Makes total sense to me.

[hunterrider23]

Send him to me, I’ll happily take a horse than can pack around the high children’s. No really. I’ll take him. That’s the same I knew some was asking for a lease on a 3’3" jr hunter with a 70k buy. And he wasn’t the type that could take a joke. 45k is a steal for a low jr that will put up with stupid mistakes. We can’t even find a 3’6" jumper or anything packer that someone will lease out for lower than 25k and we’ve been looking for months.

[fordtraktor]

No one is going to lease you a 1.2 m horse for $10k so you can take it home and jump it 3 times a week. That’s just insane.

[bringing_up_baby]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8161331]
No one is going to lease you a 1.2 m horse for $10k so you can take it home and jump it 3 times a week. That’s just insane.[/QUOTE]

Jumping 1.20m twice a week (with an occasional third time) isn’t insane. I’ve done it in two previous leases for $12k/6 months.

Think about people at horse shows…horses are jumping a lot at that height or higher on a regular basis, week after week. Horses are resilient. Yes, a horse can get hurt in turnout or in a stall, but that’s a freak thing.

I do agree with everyone in that it seems like they want to sell instead of lease.

(I don’t like showing. I just wanted a horse to ride at the level I’m at. I can’t buy because I’m afraid of resale and being stuck with a horse in this terrible market if I go back to school.)

Thanks for everyone’s input!

[IPEsq]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to charge over 1/3 in this case. But I’d want more information about the horse too. Is it just that they were taking it easy with the lower classes for training purposes. Is the horse just not careful? Are they thinking it could cross over into the eq ring?

[fordtraktor]

The problem is that by “jumping three times a week” you clearly mean two to three full jump schools a week so you can practice, which will jump its legs off. I stand by my previous opinion that no one in their right mind will lease you a horse to do that, week after week.

No one in their right mind shows every horse every week either. Sure, many people follow the circuit, but not every horse jumps every week. Most horses get a week off every few weeks and they DON’T JUMP. And most horses do a circuit and then GO HOME AND REST. you don’t plan to do this for six months. The horse is going to break.