Jumping in with an actual question because this is something I’ve wondered–does a solid prelim horse really “cross over” into the 1.20m jumpers? My not-super-educated eye would say that a stadium course at prelim isn’t on par with a straight jumper course of similar height. But cross country does clearly require a lot of scope and ability, since those jumps get big fast. Anyone have experience with this?
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It’s not just the height when you get into the 1.2 and A/Os. The courses are more technical, more combinations,requiring more rideability and talent with less time allowed. That’s what stops the progress of many. Not many of any breed are going to take a joke too often and let the rider get away with it like they do in a lower, less technical course that doesn’t require enormous effort from the horse to compensate for a bad spot or pace.
Ch/Ad is a much better goal more horses will meet. And if you are good there, you can always move up.
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Good point!
My current horse can do the Ch/Ad, but he is 15 and requires some maintenance, so I don’t want to ask him to do any more. I’ve still got lots to practice at this level, but I’m looking toward the future (particularly if it’s something green that will take years of development)
I’m thinking about my next horse and since I’ve only ever bought cheap/free horses and it’s usually worked out well (taking him from a barely restarted freebie OTTB to the AA jumpers is pretty good deal in my book!), it’s tough for me to fathom making the leap from free/cheap to $40,000+.
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Good 1.20 horses are not rare here BUT you better be prepared to open your wallet and open it wide! At least $60,000 wide…and that’s for horses with some issues, especially if you want one that’s ammie friendly, but more than likely, you’ll be opening your wallet in the $85,000 range! You still have to be a Darn decent rider, that doesn’t miss (most of the time), as even those horses will and can sour…but rare? Not the already made ones, just expensive! To take a greenie, and get it to those heights yourself…now that’s harder! YOU and the horse now have to have good talent. Your horse can have all the talent in the world, but if you don’t have all the needed skills to train that, it’s not going to happen…or you may, by pure luck, get to the 1.20 but leaving gasping people watching you won’t stay there for long…seen it happen!
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I agree with this~ I think the concept of “rare” is a very subjective one. The fact that the vast majority of US riders are riding and showing sub 1m tells you, yeah, they are more rare than 1m horses. There are lots of nice horses in Europe jumping around 1.20m comfortably. But to do with an amateur, yeah, that’s a smaller group. This is why when you shop over there, they will specifically tell you it’s a girls horse, or show you video with a girl riding it or say it’s been with an amateur. They know very well that a horse that can put up with an amateur is harder to find than one that won’t.
Every level you go up, the horses doesn’t increase in price a few thousand, it usually almost doubles. And I think that is the market telling you how much smaller that pool is. You can find nice amateur horses doing the 1.20+ there for 50-80K euros. These horses a pro can get around the 1.30s clean. You can find 1.30+ horses for amateurs for around 150K euros, give or take. These are horses that jump around the 1.40s clear with a pro. For a true high AO horse, you are looking at closer to 250-300K. Sometimes quite a bit more. Again, these horses can jump well above the 1.40s but with the help of a good pilot. And at that level, good riders can make some money competing, so these are valuable horses. A horse that can take an amateur around the national grand prixs? Yeah that’s a seven figure horse.
It’s not just that the average amateur needs safety scope, they need a good brain. I just tried a bunch of 1.30 horses in Europe this weekend. All of them were easy to ride and had good records. Some of them were totally indifferent if I made a late distance decision. Some were not. The ones who were good-natured about it were more expensive. An easy horse should be more expensive. It has a much larger pool of potential buyers.
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Those guys aren’t all that “cheap” though. We’re getting ready to list a crossover: Older TB, evented through Advanced, took owner through first Intermediate & CCI events, now jumping clean 1.20m & 1.30m rounds on USHJA circuits… price tag is still a soft mid 5 figures.
It really shouldn’t be as rare as it is. Pretty much every warmblood that gets off a plane has jumped 1.20m courses. I’m not sure what happens to them when they get here… the preponderance of 3’ & 3’3" “only” horses has me eternally amazed.
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No, Prelim is 3’7 with some 3’9 fences at a CCI. The average Intermediate or Advanced horse can at least get around safely at 4’ but (many, including many of the TBs) wouldn’t necessarily be super competitive. But they also have never really been asked to jump against the clock, and have not been really specifically trained since they can only jump so much. Certainly most could improve with training.
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Many of the XC courses are having more technical questions asked so while there are plenty of single jumps out there, there are some interesting questions on some courses. When I walked Badminton (okay it is a 5**) I commented that with some of the jumps, you’d need McLain Ward to walk with you LOL. I’ve seen plenty of event riders now crossing over into jumpers - whether this is to improve their SJ rounds or to keep their horses keen without having to run them xc or combination of both. My point is there are plenty of horses with scope, and one doesn’t always have to stick to the former GP horse selling for 6-figs to find one.
Agree with this post by Dags
It really shouldn’t be as rare as it is. Pretty much every warmblood that gets off a plane has jumped 1.20m courses. I’m not sure what happens to them when they get here… the preponderance of 3’ & 3’3" “only” horses has me eternally amazed
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I was going to say watching those horses jump around the stadium at prelim/intermediate… not the prettiest thing. Lots of rails down lots of missed. Most of them get by simply because of athleticism.
Thats the number one reason I switched to jumpers 6+ years ago. My stadium in eventing was a disaster. We could go clear in XC but the minute we stepped into stadium we were chipping left and right, pulling poles. Found a good jumper trainer and never looked back. Not saying there isn’t great eventing riders. Horses going at the prelim level are expensive now a days (imo)
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What happens is they go to a rider who needs their scope to be able to take the joke, suck it up and pack in the Ch/ Ad. or covert to a Hunter. And just because they did the 1,2 over there doesn’t mean they are what we would call “broke”. Just a Pro level rider jumped them around a training center 1.2 course, not necessarily the equivalent of an A/O course at a top circuit. And it’s a myth they have tons of Dressage flatwork, reality is once they are identified as sale horses, they get enough to get them sold. And they don’t know nothing about no decorated fences, flower boxes or stuffing. Airy 4’ post and rail with no ground line? Sure. Little box of of pretty mums in front of a 3’ ramped Oxer, Nope, forget it. Not going near it.
Been on and/ or around enough of them recently off the plane just flatting to know lots don’t know what many assume they do because they come from Europe. Especially young and under 50k or so.
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I mean… exactly… they are barely broke and still jumping around 1.20m courses.
Yes, big strong professionals muscle the 5 year olds into a frame that works effectively to get the job done. But if anybody here bothered to take the time to install the flatwork that makes that same scope-carrying frame attainable for the average human being the 3’6"+ horse wouldn’t be such a rare commodity. And likewise, it would be far more affordable.
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This exactly…I’ve seen lots be resold because they weren’t “what they thought” once they got them over here and realized they a) weren’t so broke and b) they wouldn’t put up with the ammie mistakes!
Oh, the horses are out there. We have a poster who has imported from Ireland. But she has a keen eye and can fracking ride. Likewise a few others can take them off the track and reach Prelim, 3’6”+ Hunters or A/O showjumping. But they aren’t the majority and are the last people to tout their talents. Probably because they know what it really takes in time and training and a little luck.
Horses, after all, are the sport that has humbled Kings.
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Ok let’s just go with some videos to prove that ‘shaky amateur’ riders can produce a TB through 1.20:
Video: (And yes bless his heart for being so friggin honest): https://youtu.be/u2A5xwAJLAI
And then the rider could come back and improve 5 years later and be able to import a cheap wb and get as far as 1.30 (so far)
Video: https://youtu.be/K7ybBLmWDzI
Bottom line… pigeon holing any horse or rider with what it ‘should’ be able to do on paper is a sure fire way to prove that determination wrong.
MANY Tb’s can handle 1.20 courses without a problem.
MANY riders are more capable than their trainers (or even they) know.
Em
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Em, we are old school. Many buying today just are not and don’t want to be.
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Thank God for Old School then.
Em
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Look I would love to find a TB. I would certainly love to not spend a ton of money. I grew up riding them and I love the courage and great brains they often have. The reality is I’m 6’ tall, with a giant upper body and can make most anything look small.
That doesn’t mean I’m trying to cut corners and buy my way in or that I’m not willing to work hard to improve a green horse. I’m not in a big program, I trailer in to meet my trainer etc.
What I AM is risk averse. So for me, I’m willing to pay up for a good brain and lots of athleticism bc stopping really unnerves me and makes this hobby no fun at all.
I don’t think people should feel bad for spending money to buy a quality horse. Or needing the help of a trainer. Having both doesn’t guarantee success, but it can improve your odds. I am wary of encouraging folks to go out on their own and find something off of video or something ultra green, because honestly, not everyone has the hustle, grit or talent of Emily. Of course I admire her abilities and applaud her for going her own way.
But I worry about folks trying to replicate that and buying unsuitable horses and having a bad time of it. Because in the end, the party that suffers MOST is the unsuitable horse. They often do not find a good situation.
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To add to that, while it’s not uncommon for a young rider or adult amateur to make it to Prelim successfully with an OTTB or other inexpensive horse they’ve brought up the levels, it’s not exactly “common” either … the majority of combinations top out at Training or lower for some reason or another. And while making it to intermediate (where the stadium course is 1.2m) is certainly not unheard of, it’s even less common. It’s also becoming more and more common in eventing for kids/amateurs to buy “made” horses with extensive competition records with a pro.
That said, I don’t think it’s necessarily lack of scope on the horse’s part that keeps most competent, dedicated amateurs from making it to them A/O’s. A lot of it will still boil down to whether you can afford the training and the competitions you need to attend to get to and stay at that level … and it doesn’t matter how dedicated you are if you don’t have the resources to do it. And if you have that sort of budget to begin with, most choose to spend more up front for a horse that is known to be capable at the level versus taking a gamble on a $2,000 OTTB and hoping you’ll get there eventually.
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Good & valid points all around. I think a key thing to remember is that what works for one person doesn’t necessary work for another. In this sport there are so many variables constantly at play, and luck is often a huge factor.
A fresh off the track TB someone picks up for $5k could go on to have a long and successful career in the 1.30s. A warmblood with a solid 1.30 record someone pays $150k to import could break a leg or decide it doesn’t want to jump the big sticks anymore. For someone with the financial means who wants to jump the big stuff in the near future and isn’t keen on risk, the second horse is still a better option. For someone on a budget who can handle some risk, likes developing green horses, and doesn’t mind waiting several years to see if the horse is suitable for the big stuff, the first horse is a perfectly good option. Of courses there are horses in the midpoint of that spectrum, as @Xctrygirl has proven.
I find myself somewhere in the middle of these two “approaches.” I’d love a nice 5 year old with a good brain and better scope. I consider myself a competent amateur who can handle a tricky horse and isn’t in a huge rush, but I’m very risk averse and don’t fully trust my abilities in sourcing a jumper prospect since I don’t have a ton of experience with young horses. If I spend all my savings on a horse that ends up being unsuitable, it would be years before I could save up enough to get back on track, esp. if it’s a horse I can’t resell without a huge loss. At the same time, if I’m working with a small budget, does it make sense to make it even smaller by bringing more people into the mix? Should I just trust my gut? Weigh the pros and cons, rinse, wash, repeat.
Anyway, this is to say the whole process is pretty daunting and there are so many different trade-offs and priorities to consider. I love all of @Xctrygirl’s updates on her beautiful import and it’s clear they make a great team. I’m also positive @greysfordays will bring home something amazing to kick ass with in the 1.30s. We’re all just on different roads to the same destination :).
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Heights: The following fence dimensions are approximate equivalents in metric and English units:
0.70 m = Fences 2’3” in height
0.75 m = Fences 2’5” in height
0.80 m = Fences 2’7” in height
0.85 m = Fences 2’9” in height
0.90 m = Fences 2’11” in height
0.95 m = Fences 3’1” in height
1.00 m = Fences 3’3” in height
1.05 m = Fences 3’5” in height
1.10 m = Fences 3’7” in height
1.15 m = Fences 3’9” in height
1.20 m = Fences 3’11” in height
1.25 m = Fences 4’1” in height
1.30 m = Fences 4’3” in height
1.35 m = Fences 4’5” in height
1.40 m = Fences 4’7” in height
1.45 m = Fences 4’9” in height
1.50 m = Fences 4’11” in height
1.55 m = Fences 5’1” in height
1.60 m = Fences 5’3” in height -
Width:
a. All courses require a minimum of three obstacles in which the spread exceeds the height by 5 cm (2”) up to 15 cm (6”). (See JP124.7)
b. Triple Bars may be up to 30 cm (12”) wider than the height listed
IMO, 3’11" a full course, at a rated show, with at least 3 of those obstacles WIDER than they are tall…it is fine to round up.
I have a really nice horse, and he is doing 1.20 and some 1.25-1.30 classes. The problem is he is too big for me. I am completely ineffective on him. I’m 5’1", he’s 17 hands. And after having the 6th or 7th professional say “I could really see you on a smaller horse” or “He’s really big for you”, I finally listened, and have downsized to a nice little OTTB.
My big guy is for sale, and I’ve ridden a few other 17 hand horses since I’ve had him and I realize I just don’t have fun on a horse that big. My dressage mare is 16 hands, my new OTTB is a lean 16 hands.
I will see what my TB can do, I think he’s scopey enough for the 1.10 meter, but that will be next year.
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