This is so correct it bears quotation and repeating!
The barn I’m at is one of the barns that starts young horses in Europe. They are broken, learn to turn, walk trot and canter balanced then they start jumping. They get some flat work on the days they don’t jump but they have no dressage until they are older. BUT my (originally) 15k Horse will Jump the 120s with me next year. She’s not a diamond in the rough and I’m far from an amazing rider.
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Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed seeing your progress.
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Thanks very much.
Things are admittedly defying many averages and for that I am grateful.
Em
It’s not about the scope to jump a 1.20m fence. I think most horses could make it around a 1.20m course with a decent rider. So in that respect I think that a 1.20m horse (by that definition) includes most horse with a reasonable amount of try and even a modicum of scope.
It’s the ability of a horse to rebound mentally from a terrible decision at 1.20m and do it over and over and over again that makes an “ammy proof” 1.20m horse such a rare bird. I have a couple of those right now and they are not cheap. But having watched a whole heck of a lot of horses decide that “nope, that eat-shit-chip was ONE too many and I’m done now,” makes me feel pretty comfortable with what I’m asking, because the horse that can bail a rider out AND keep doing it over and over again is not something you come across all that often.
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100%
From time to time I read on here something along the lines of, “Europeans put a good dressage foundation on all of their horses/stress dressage/install more buttons/whatever” and it simply is not the case. I’m sure that some sellers do, but not the vast majority.
I know a few horses around here (I’m in Europe) that compete in the jumpers anywhere from 1.10 to 1.40 and their flat work is kind of crap to be honest. They do just enough to get by and I feel as though if they focused on it more, they’d be more competitive, consistent, and able to reach the next level. But if you’re a good enough rider, and the horse is reasonably athletic, you can make it over everything at a good speed. Many jumper riders also find dressage “boring” but that’s purely from some personal interactions I’ve had and may not be the norm everywhere.
Then we have the fact that these horses with mediocre to ok flatwork are being ridden by pros at sales barns, so when the typical ammy gets said horse, there are some hiccups. I’ve seen some long adjustment periods or many over horsed individuals. I also think that the American definition of ammy friendly and European definition slightly differ.
I have an example of a rider that purchased horses competing at 1.10 and 1.20 and the 1.20 horse had strong potential for more. She can hardly get these horses around a course of small cross rails. So while the horses have the ability, the rider needs to also. The 2 horses sales videos and a video of her riding look completely different. You’d think they weren’t the same horses. The difference is the rider. I’m not insulting this rider as she can buy a 1.60 horse and use it as a trail horse for all I care, but it just highlights that rider ability and determination is a huge factor.
If you get a more athletic horse, they are more likely to be able to save your bacon. Many horses can make it around 1.10-1.20 but can the rider? I’ve seen some unlikely prospects really shine under certain riders because of the riders ability and mindset.
I don’t think 1.20 horses are rare, but the riders can be. Not so much in my area, so that varies too. It’s just like any other discipline though, the rider and horse need the right skills and mindset to be successful. Sometimes you get horses that have the ability, but just don’t care to and rather do something else.
I have a horse that free jumps beautifully and willingly, but give him a job as a jumper, even with a stellar rider, and he’s just not that into it and rather do dressage. His bloodlines are of the jumper variety, but his brain just isn’t. So free jump videos don’t always tell all, but I think most educated buyers know there is a slight risk with buying (especially unbroke - so you really don’t know) horses off of a free jump video.
So I don’t think 1.20 horses are rare, but the riders that can develop these horses and ride them correctly may be more so. That and not everyone has a careful eye. Sure said horse is going 1.20 but is it an effortless, athletic, and forgiving looking ride? or a pro/very talented rider that’s really making the course come together on a horse that could be tricky.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹I think you can find “diamonds in the rough” or unlikely prospects but your eye and skill needs to be there.
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First find me that 100 SOUND ottb’s! 😜
What makes me wonder is the fact that many people fear the work. Of course there are many horses that could do higher levels with a better rider, but there are also many riders who can learn to ride 1.20m correctly. At our local shows I see many horses that would not be perfect for the american market but still can do the 1.20m well. What I think is who willing are you to do the work and with which problems can you live. And how fast you want to be really successful at that level?
I personally can handle a stop and don’t get to faced about it. Putting the flatwork on a horse does not scare me. Do you have the time and people to help to put the work on a horse? You can buy a nice youngster with a good brain. They are there but maybe you need some more time with them.
I had a mare that moved from 0.90cm to 1.20m young jumpers after about a year of hard dressage work. Old fashioned horse but brave and careful enough. She had some rails down but could also go Clear and help out.
Making mistakes is part of the process. And I am really skeptical that the american amateur rides so much weaker than the european. And if here ammys can train their horses i do not see a reason why you couldn’t.
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I don’t think that American amateurs are significantly weaker, but I do think there is a slight variance in the definition of ammy friendly in respect to what the rider will ride before feeling overfaced.
The other difference is that here in Germany it is much easier to develop these horses in my opinion. It is cheaper and we have more competitions within a closer radius and they are quite frequent as well as affordable compared to competitions in America (some, not all). America is also huge so things can get really spread out there and while Germany and Europe in general can have dead zones too, I think competitions are still more accessible. Part of developing a good 1.20 horse or beyond that is going to competitions.
I’ve only ridden in certain parts of America but lessons from good pros here cost far less in my general experience.
That being said I feel as though the quality and availability of a good Thoroughbred are far greater in America. I believe these to be naturally athletic horses, some more so than others, that could easily put in a decent 1.20 round. It’s just the time and development of the horse and a rider that has to happen. Some will put in the work, some won’t.
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Why not lease a solid 1.20m horse for a year to make your riding better and more accurate… then increase your capabilities to produce the next one?
Alternatively, I always had a pro take mine around the next level a few times so she had a nice trip before I came along. It meant the fences/techy bits didn’t scare her AND me at the same time.
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I think you hit the nail on the head PNW! I really do believe most horses could go around 1.20 with appropriate training, but the ability to take a rider mistake at that level and say “no biggie” is what is truly rare in a horse.
Leasing would be the best plan for sure! The issue I have is that I live in the middle of nowhere (due to my job) and have to board at a small multi-discipline barn and trailer out for quality instruction about 1 hr away. Most people that are leasing out 1.20 horses want them in a program (understandably so).
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To jump 1.20 and tolerate amateur mistakes is actually quite rare. Not in AA show world with 6 figure horses and amateurs that are near professional level, but the any given OTTB and an average amateur - yes rare.
There are a lot of comments here about the ability of the horse to deal with mistakes and keep on trucking - I’d like to add that I think the ability of the rider to do the same is just as important, if not more so. You have to believe you can do it.
I consider myself a pretty average rider, certainly not particularly talented. My horse, C, is a small gelding of unknown breeding. He’d never competed when I got him as a 6yo and I’ve done 99% of his training myself. We finished the last season comfortably at 1.10m and a few competent 1.15m’s. He has oodles of scope and is very generous. (Also very quirky!)
The biggest issue I face is my fear of making mistakes and “ruining” my horse. But oddly enough, if I make a mistake but just carry on like “of course I meant to get really deep to that one” it actually works out fine. The more I beat myself up about mistakes, the more I make. My friends who ride at the higher levels make less mistakes, sure, but when they do make a mistake they try not to dwell on it.
I live in NZ and there are a ton of people like me competing at the 1.10-1.20m level - ammies who work full time & have one or two horses - lots are OTTBs. Oh and almost everyone is DIY - we just trailer out for lessons. It is infinitely cheaper to keep & compete horses here.
I don’t want this to be read as a “we’re so much better in NZ!” - more a musing on the difference in perception of how possible it is for the ammie rider to find a horse to do this on. I think there’s very much an attitude here that these heights are perfectly achievable. Yes, you need to ride pretty competently and you need a reasonably athletic horse, but you don’t need to be perfect and you don’t need a warmblood.
Anyway, I hope it’s perfectly achievable because that’s my goal for the coming season!
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What’s your definition of a “mediocre” rider as applied to yourself, OP?
I hate using the word ammy in threads like these. A 1.20 PACKER is rare. To me ammy means not a pro. I have a TB that has the potential go 1.20 but she’s not a packer. I am not there yet as a rider but I have the horse for it. She will recover from bad decisions and keep going if you stay with her and ride her.
She’s a solidly built 16.1 TB that I picked up for 2k.
A 1.20 packer is going to cost money because they are rare. A 1.20 horse that you actually need to ride but has a good brain, not so much.
IMO, it’s a few things:
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I ride a TB that was sport bred and imported from either NZ or Australia. Friends that ride show hunter insist that he cannot be a TB when they see video of him. He’s 1/8 Dutch WB and they grasp onto that as the difference. Is it? I doubt it. The other Australian TB I’ve met have a similar body type to his. They aren’t as wispy-looking as American TB and tend to have deeper chests.
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The American show hunter culture. It doesn’t exist in other countries. The style doesn’t lend itself to developing good toplines and overall strength and balance - something which an OTTB desperately needs. I’m beginning to suspect this is a huge piece of why WB are becoming popular in show hunters.
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American culture is largely risk adverse. We’re (monolithically speaking) inclined to buy safety. People want to jump 1.20, but they don’t want to own up to the fact that there is inherent risk involved. Especially if it’s their child doing it. Look at the overall parenting culture in the US. It’s nuts. In some states it’s illegal to leave a kid under 14 home alone while you run to the gas station.
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We don’t also like the idea of Fluffy getting hurt, either. So we insist on paying tremendous amounts of $$$ for an animal that is a freak of nature to try to mitigate the risks.
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again, American show hunter culture, where you must have a trainer telling you what to do at all times.
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As others have said, it is so much about the rider unless you have the luck and the money for a true packer. All the correct flatwork in the world isn’t going to convince the average horse he should keep jumping for someone who lies to him over fences. (Ask me how I know this!)
I’m just now finally moving up to the 1.20s and it’s fricking HARD! I have a super-scopey, very easy-going, super jumper-bred WB and I have discovered that 4’ is the height at which he will only take so many jokes. I’m not a bad rider, but I’m an ammy and sometimes default to dumb ammy riding. My horse wants me to be clear and confident in my ride or he gets a little iffy, and at 1.20m+ it’s much harder for him to come back from me leaning at a jump or dropping him right in front of a big oxer. If I sit up, package him, and get him up in front of my leg to everything, he’ll jump 1.40m+ without hesitation. So, my riding has had to improve exponentially so my wonderful horse keeps jumping for me.
As for Prelim horses crossing over, well, that is almost more about training, along with the effective rider. My good friend who I ride with takes her 3* horse and her greenies and students to lots of jumper shows with me and does as much jumper coursework as she schools XC. She rides her big horse quite differently in the ring than she does out on XC, and that has taken her some time to figure out. Most of her horses are OTTBs, and they can jump really big things- XC jumps I would never in a million years be brave enough to tackle! But the ability to do show jumper courses- respecting the jumps instead of rubbing them, really sitting on their butts and bending their hocks to jump up instead of across, doing very tight turns, answering striding questions, etc.- all of this is something that many of them need built in.
The thing about TBs is that if you get one with lots of heart and they understand what you are asking them to do they are very smart about it. There are several event horses in my barn who I think I could happily convert to jumpers, but it would be work. My own TB, now retired, ended up turning into a total packer at Training, leased out to a kid, because he hated jump-offs. I got him late in life and although he had the scope to do anything, he just never understood why we were rushing around the ring. He much preferred the more straightforward, one and done stadium courses, he was lovely in dressage, and he kicked ass XC.
One thing I would recommend is to go to shows and watch the AO jumpers and start to pick out the differences in the horses and riders doing that versus the AAs. Along my journey to (and hopefully up!) the AO levels, I’ve watched a ton of other ammies at every show I’ve been to, and there is quite a difference in the riding once you get past the 1.10-1.15m classes. There is also a difference in the horses to a certain extent, but not as much as the level of riding.
It’s really fun moving up, but even with my awesome guy it’s been more of a challenge than I expected. Good luck! I hope you find what you are looking for!
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