How to begin field turnout?

[friendlyhands]

I’m looking for some advice on how to manage field turnout with my mare. I am in a full service barn that has limited turnout and I’m likely going to move to a barn where owners take care of turnout themselves. I have owned a horse for many years and I’m confident with riding, longing, in-hand work etc, but haven’t had responsibility for herd dynamics in turnout situations. My mare is 7 and as she has matured she has become much more self confident around other horses. She is very quick and athletic. My current BM says she is sometimes quite aggressive with the other 3 mares she is turned out with. There have been no injuries, but my girl drives the others away from the gate when it is time to come in. She sometimes drives the others away from a hay pile that she wants, and she appears very “grumpy”. She did kick a gelding who came up behind her on a trail ride. Those are really the only examples of poor behaviour that I know of. She does run and play with other horses and that seems to go very well. I’m wondering if some of this is caused by aggravation because of the heat, bugs and no grass in their 1/2 acre turnout paddock (due to the season/climate) when they have been out for several hours together and the hay is all gone? She is very good with ground work and under saddle and is generally obedient and easy to get along with, though a little on the hot side. She doesn’t wear hind shoes.

The new place is mostly middle aged people who own casual pleasure or trail horses and some retirees (both horse and owner) and they are people with a lot of years of experience but sometimes surprising views…. There is no resident trainer or really experienced BM, so we will be working this out as we go along. The new place has several fields and so I would be able to put my horse in one while a potential new friend is in another. I’m wondering if any of you could give me a procedure for how to select a good partner and how to get them used to each other? I am really excited that horse will at last have some real grassy field time, but I want it to go as well as possible. WWYD?

[Libby2563]

@friendlyhands

WWYD?

Honestly (and I’m sorry because I know this isn’t what you asked, but…) I would not move to that barn because of this:

@friendlyhands

they are people with a lot of years of experience but sometimes surprising views…. There is no resident trainer or really experienced BM, so we will be working this out as we go along.

You’ve seemingly just met these people and already see some incompatibilities in your horsekeeping views. There is no one of authority to make decisions or mediate conflicts. Cold, hard nope from me.

What if one of their surprising views is that it’s okay to turn a strange horse out with your mare and “let them work it out because they’re just playing”? Or that a 2-year-old intact colt is too young to impregnate your mare?

[punchy]

I wouldn’t try to explain away your mare’s behavior—she’s the boss mare around other horses. There will be times when she is hungry, hot, cold, buggy, or just irritated with the others. How she behaves with you has nothing to do with what she’s like in the pasture with them. You’ll have to admit that to people when you go shopping for pasture buddies.

And I agree that the bigger issue here may be the human herd dynamics rather than the equine ones.

[Weezer]

I moved around a lot in my early 20s so my horse was boarded at about 8 different farms in 6 years. I have lots of experience introducing horses. Knowing that your mare is bossy, I’d say she needs lots of room for personal space (how many horses were in that 1/2 acre pen?).

I’m not too worried about the human dynamics as that will be a challenge wherever you go, especially at a farm where everyone has more responsibility for horse care. My suggestion is to be upfront about your bossy mare and talk to the other owners to determine which horses might be good field mates. I would then put her out with two laid back horses. In my experience if you put a boss horse out with just one other, the boss horse tends to become overly possessive of that one horse when other horses are turned out. My making her the odd one out from the start, she will have to behave nicely to be let into the herd.

I would also put out about 4 or 5 piles of hay so there is no need for resource guarding. And if possible I’d put out two water troughs in areas where nobody gets cornered. After a few months you may be able to ease up on all that. You may also find that your mare is not so bossy if she has more room to move and more turnout. It can take several months for horses to settle into a new hierarchy so don’t get discouraged.

If this is a situation where she will be turned out alone, I wouldn’t worry too much about who her fence mate is because she’ll presumably have room to get away from that horse if they don’t get along.

I once had a mare who guarded the gate at a farm where we boarded briefly. One day she caused a huge fuss at the gate and a woman who had been trying to get her horse out got run over and broke her arm. It was awful! After that we kept a lunge whip at the gate and my mare was either driven away from the gate, or haltered and tied while people moved horses. I moved my mare as soon as I could because she was dangerous for everyone. I never saw that behaviour from her before or since so I think she wasn’t happy in that environment. There she was in a small turnout with a few horses and the care wasn’t great. You may find that your mare is less pushy in an unfamiliar environment and with more space. Good luck!

[Weezer]

I would also keep an open mind with the middle-aged trail horse owners. They probably have a lot of approaches that are not to pony club standards, but their experience is based on trial and error and learning that horses are much more resilient than pony club would have you believe. When I got my first horse I was by the pony club book on horse care but it was mostly exhausting and overkill. 24 years later my horses are all in their late 20s and in top health with no vices but a true pony cluber would likely be appalled at how I care for them.

My advice to people taking on more responsibility for horse care is to read a lot, ask a lot of questions, and then go with your instinct. On the occasions when I’ve made animal care decisions that weren’t going with my gut, it has not worked out well.

[luvmyhackney]

For me it would depend on size of field and how I introduced. I like to have a new horse share a fence line for a day or so and then slowly introduce friends one at a time over the fence.
If the field is big enough I might turn out sooner with the group then a smaller paddock.

I do expect some reworking of the herd dynamics to accommodate stronger personalities. So except she might get some superficial scrapes and bumps.

They are horses and herd creatures so as long as they aren’t used to private turnout and have lived in herds before, chances are she is going to be fine.

[jvanrens]

@friendlyhands

The new place is mostly middle aged people who own casual pleasure or trail horses and some retirees (both horse and owner) and they are people with a lot of years of experience but sometimes surprising views….

Well, as a middle aged person with a trail horse, I’d love to hear what their surprising views are. Hard to make suggestions when we don’t have all the information.

[Bluey]

I have over the years of all kinds of horses in turnout, many living 24/7 out, realized that we are not always smart about turning horses out.
We excuse bullies as herd dynamics, they will have to cope, etc. a bit too much.
Horses live to their own drummers and we don’t always get it right.
Even if some horses follow a leader around and let it bully them seemingly by choice, do we really can’t see they live a bit too stressful life, the bully feeling the need to control and bully, the underlings having to keep watching their backs?

We help our horses have a better life by steady good food and water and medical care wild and feral horses don’t have, a fair trade-off for being domesticated and kept for our uses and invent what else they may prefer best we can figure as the humans we are.

Over the decades I have seen, especially with older horses, that they seem happier and relieved when they don’t have to live with others in our rather small, for a horse, communal areas and water and feed resources.
The reality is, in some places communal living is the way we manage horses, in others more individualized space, down to individual stalls, is how we keep horses.

In the wild models some use to try to keep domestic herds, maybe those are not as good a model as we think, because in the wild horses can and do go away permanently if the herd dynamics are not their preference.
Domestic horses can’t, the boss has to be bossing and the underling be bossed all the time they are in the same communal relatively small space with the same resources.

Our little domestic herds also change, as mentioned above, all during the day, depending on how playful or grumpy or guarding resources everyone feels at any one time.

One of many, many examples, we had a steady, long time little gelding herd that really got along well, no one was bossy or wimpy.
Then we added another nice horse, he didn’t fight anyone, but he started driving them back and forth all day, down the mile long horse trap to grazing spots, back up to water and supplemental feed in the pens twice a day, barely letting them drink or eat and again out to walk along.
Our horses are barefoot and were becoming nicely fit, but the two older horses, especially the cushionoid one, were getting foot sore.
We put new horse in a trap across the fence from the others and he was happy and rested better, no more job of running the herd, he came and went at will, ignoring that his little herd, now leaderless, were waiting across the fence for him, for days.
The other horses were not giving it up, he was their boss and didn’t know how to run their days without him?

We let the one horse go to a home where they had two other horses, every one of them in their own stall and run and little pasture and he was really happy there and a little 4H girl’s dream.

We have over decades accumulated plenty of such stories, where horses were not directly aggressive to others, or being egressed grievously, but still were not really having the best quality of life for who they were as horses.

What can we do to ameliorate situations where horse herd dynamics seem a bit too stressful, like here with a bossy mare that can have her worse moments?

It is up to us to keep trying to manage, if something doesn’t quite work, try other, as the OP is asking for ideas.
That we see the situation maybe needing addressing and keep trying to manage for the better for all is what managing our horses is all about.
Our different experiences and ideas garnered from them will depend on what we have learned, not everyone coming to the same conclusions.
Will be interesting to hear what others have to say.

I would not know what to try not knowing the horses and situation involved there, but consider that the question was asked here a learning lesson for all of us.
OP, thank you for posing your questions.

[friendlyhands]

Thank you Bluey and everyone for your responses. I knew your answers would be more varied and nuanced that reading the same ol’ stuff in a book etc.

Just to clarify - my horse is very polite and respectful to the older broodmare who is clearly the boss, and she has also been turned out with another mare who clearly bossed her around. So I’m thinking she is more in the middle. I don’t have enough info to start thinking of her as “boss” mare or a “bully”. I don’t even like those words because I think they describe specific human behaviour and I don’t see horse behaviour as the equivalent of that.

In the new place, I would have control over when, how long, with whom she would go out with - ie the boarders negotiate amongst themselves about their own horse and it seems to be working very well for them. But their horses only go out for an hour or two and I would like to have my mare out longer, if possible. I’m excited to think that after all these years (25+ of boarding) I might get to manage this for my horse’s benefit.

I didn’t mean to disparage the other boarders - I myself am a middle aged (or better) rider, but I come from a more traditional dressage background. Some of these folks are friends and I know them well, and would take their almost all of their opinions seriously. Some of the “surprising” ideas that get floated around include bits are bad, bridleless is better, and loopy reins are the best, barefoot is better than shoes, and an enthusiasm for animal communicators to help solve training problems. Just things I don’t personally take on board. On the other hand they were surprised to see me riding in spurs and tall boots. I’m all for diversity and I know I am a student and not a pro, so happy to see all flourishing in their own way!

I thinks its very interesting to help my horse have the best possible life she can have, not just when she is working with me, but all the time. And time in a field with friends has got to be the one things a horse would vote for, right?

[NaturallyHappy]

I would think about a little ace on board for the first meeting. Also, it might be helpful If she can be stabled next to her potential new buddy.

[tabula_rashah]

Sorry but your post, esp with the clarifications, comes out sounding like “I’m a fancy dressage person and they are county bumpkins”
This doesn’t sound like the barn for you

[Scribbler]

@friendlyhands

Thank you Bluey and everyone for your responses. I knew your answers would be more varied and nuanced that reading the same ol’ stuff in a book etc.

Just to clarify - my horse is very polite and respectful to the older broodmare who is clearly the boss, and she has also been turned out with another mare who clearly bossed her around. So I’m thinking she is more in the middle. I don’t have enough info to start thinking of her as “boss” mare or a “bully”. I don’t even like those words because I think they describe specific human behaviour and I don’t see horse behaviour as the equivalent of that.

In the new place, I would have control over when, how long, with whom she would go out with - ie the boarders negotiate amongst themselves about their own horse and it seems to be working very well for them. But their horses only go out for an hour or two and I would like to have my mare out longer, if possible. I’m excited to think that after all these years (25+ of boarding) I might get to manage this for my horse’s benefit.

I didn’t mean to disparage the other boarders - I myself am a middle aged (or better) rider, but I come from a more traditional dressage background. Some of these folks are friends and I know them well, and would take their almost all of their opinions seriously. Some of the “surprising” ideas that get floated around include bits are bad, bridleless is better, and loopy reins are the best, barefoot is better than shoes, and an enthusiasm for animal communicators to help solve training problems. Just things I don’t personally take on board. On the other hand they were surprised to see me riding in spurs and tall boots. I’m all for diversity and I know I am a student and not a pro, so happy to see all flourishing in their own way!

I thinks its very interesting to help my horse have the best possible life she can have, not just when she is working with me, but all the time. And time in a field with friends has got to be the one things a horse would vote for, right?

If you are just mainly trail riding then bit less and looped reins and boots not shoes actually are better if they work for your horse. You don’t ride on full contract for 3 hours in the mountains.

You can’t really do dressage effectively in a bit less bridle.

I myself try never to turn my horse out with a shod horse especially hinds because they can do so much more damage kicking each other. How does your new barn feel about that?

Why are the horses only out short periods of time? Is there a shortage of space? Do thru go out in compatible groups? Do you need to be onsite to supervise?

If I could have all day turnout I’d certainly take advantage of it, but make sure you can actually do this.

[candyappy]

@jvanrens

Well, as a middle aged person with a trail horse, I’d love to hear what their surprising views are. Hard to make suggestions when we don’t have all the information.

Me too.

@friendlyhands don’t be surprised if your mare is not the boss mare at her new place even if they gat along sharing a fence you may have a few bumps in the road when they are together at first.

Having adequate space and ample food can eliminate some of the past issues.

[endlessclimb]

You’re suggesting ace for one horse for a multi horse introduction?

Is this a thing? I have never heard that, and can think of a few reasons why it’s a terrible idea.

[NaturallyHappy]

No…I wasn’t clear at all. We give the new horse a little ace by mouth and turn that horse out w one familiar w the field, also on ace. We use just 1-2 ccs. We have quite a few fields and don’t do large groups. Thanks for asking for clarification.

[Warmblood1]

@friendlyhands

Just to clarify - my horse is very polite and respectful to the older broodmare who is clearly the boss, and she has also been turned out with another mare who clearly bossed her around. So I’m thinking she is more in the middle. I don’t have enough info to start thinking of her as “boss” mare or a “bully”. I don’t even like those words because I think they describe specific human behaviour and I don’t see horse behaviour as the equivalent of that.

There are more dominant horses and there is a “boss,” so to speak, and they will put more submissive horses in line. The difference with horses, however, is they don’t take it personally.

That said, I’d check the fencing of the pasture and make sure it’s safe. One of the number one causes of injury in turn out, especially new turn out, is horses crashing into fences. If it’s poor fencing, horses can get caught or trapped and things become catastrophic. Without a BM, I’d worry about maintenance.

Things also go smoother with fewer horses. If you can introduce 1-2 at a time to her in a separate paddock, that’s great. The larger the turn out space, the better. Allow them to sort out their order for a few days. I’d then introduce another horse, and slowly add on for group turn out.

I would also be hesitant to use ace. I’ve also never done that and things have gone smoothly without.

[Weezer]

I can see how that would have helped a bad introduction I recently did with a very passive mare and a herd boss mare. The first introduction really sets the tone and unfortunately there was turmoil in my small herd for several months until the boss mare was finally removed. I think if she’d had a little edge taken off for the first few days, it could have been much better.