How to continue mentally and morally

[KenaiStudios]

Hi there,

I have been struggling for a while now trying to hold on to my dreams with my horses, but I am finding myself rather lost these days and not sure how to continue.
I am sorry this might be a lengthy post but I am hoping some of you can share some of your experiences with me.
I’ve been riding for close to 30 years now with a small break while I was in the military. I feel like I never had these problems before my break, maybe because I was young and ignorant.
When I came back in to horses I started going down a slippery slope. I bought a mare that provided me with a hairline fracture in my spine. I sent her off for training and things went well from there. We added a few more horses to the mix but then had to move unexpectedly and I could only bring my young gelding along. I started him under saddle with the guidance of a trainer and everything went great. We had a lot of fun, working on endurance etc but he was a strong horse and hard to ride around other horses so I eventually sold him and got another mare. She was sweet as pie but I had a hard time keeping her eating. We did vet checks etc and I eventually sold her because I thought my weight might be too much. She was a 14h paso mare and my heart and all I wanted for her was to have the best life possible. I then bought a tall stocky TWH but as I put the miles on him he got worse and worse out on the trail. My young daughter was starting to ride with me and I came to the conclusion that he was not a good match. At this point I was feeling like I was the issue and fell into a sort of depression. My friends helped me overcome this and I got back in the saddle.
I purchased my now horse as a 2 week old, thinking that this would allow me to help him grow and build a strong body from the beginning and give me a lot of time to work on my weight and fitness.
Shortly after I purchased him, a friend gave me a paso mare to start under saddle. She was easy to work with and went beautifully until a year in and she developed kissing spines. We tried the non invasive rehab route, but it didn’t help, and I wasn’t in a financial position for surgery. She went back to life out on green pastures with my friend. My depression and anxiety started to return but I pushed through. I found another horse to work with but before I could even get any extensive rides on her she also was diagnosed with kissing spines.
At this point I stopped riding and just focused on ground work with my young gelding and working on myself.
When it came time to start him under saddle at 3 years old I had a lot of anxiety over hurting and ruining him so while he was 3 he got a handful of rides that each lasted maybe 10-15 minutes. Everything seemed fine so when he was 4 I started doing a little more. Still easy rides but more consistently. We do a lot of ground work, walking over poles, learning sidepassing and yields, ground driving etc I tried to stay away from circles to save his knees. Never worked him in deep sand. We do a lot of stretches etc. I was trying everything I could think of, reading online and talking with people to help him build a strong body. He felt nice and carried himself well under saddle but I always felt like his topline was lacking but most chopped it off to him still growing and being a typical gaited horse.
Fast forward to now he is just shy of 5 years old and we have increased the work load to include moving out more on the trail. His normal rides are about 6 miles, we have done a handful of longer rides, but nothing super speedy. I try to keep arena work to 2 times a week, one trail ride and ground work for 2 more days.
About 2 months ago he started getting agitated under saddle, primarily showing it by chomping his teeth really hard (we ride bitless. I have tried a bit but it doesn’t change anything). I have never had a horse do this before. I know he is trying to tell me something is wrong. I tried saddle changes, trim changes, adding shoes, taking away shoes. I check his back after every ride religiously because I am petrified of another kissing spines. I try not to be a deadweight in the saddle and I don’t like to crank on his face so he has loose reins most of the time.
I know he is uncomfortable and I made a vet appointment for him to be checked top to bottom but they were booked for a month so its coming up the end of the week.
I feel defeated and like I messed up another horse. I long to ride him but I can’t justify climbing on him when he is so obviously uncomfortable.
I know to some this might be jumping the gun before the vet has even been put, but my past experiences and anxiety have taken over. Part of me believes he probably has kissing spines. Which is why I haven’t been able to build a nice top line and I feel like it was me causing it all. If it’s nothing medically I still feel like I messed him up like my others once I started riding frequently.
I am struggling pulling myself out of this dark hole and I am not sure how to move forward. He is such an amazing and kind horse who deserves so much better. I feel like I should not be riding anymore because I just ruin horses and it breaks my heart. My daughter and I had a lot of hopes and dreams getting back into endurance together and I love trail and going on adventures with her and our horses. Now it all seems gone.
Has anyone ever had this much bad luck and is still continuing to ride?
I am sorry this is such a long novel, but I feel like the background is needed!

[Boomer]

You aren’t the first, last or only person to go through this. I have, other horse friends have… the barn I’m at currently had a stretch of bad luck last year that was bad enough that we had someone come do a purification - burning sage, etc.
I’ve been in horses a long time. Owned many.
After a bad luck horse streak that lasted about 5 years, I decided to get out… or least take a break from it. So I was horseless for about 6 months - didn’t ride or anything. Was amazing how much was in my bank account suddenly. Started doing dog sports with my aussie - which is so fun. But then a friend posted a horse for sale/lease that drew me back in. So far no regrets and still doing dog sports

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

You said you tried saddle changes - what, exactly, did you try? A five year old in regular work is going to change his topline significantly as he matures. My TB went from a narrow to an extra-wide in less than two years. Have you had a saddle fitter out to do measurements and ensure your saddle fits properly, that there aren’t any pressure points or areas where it’s rocking or bridging?

When did you last have his teeth done? He could need floated, or have a baby tooth that never fell out. Just because you’re riding bitless doesn’t mean it might not still be bothering him.

How are you working to develop his topline? Are you doing exercises that engage his core and ask him to lift his back? When you ride, are you engaging your core and remaining light in the saddle?

I wouldn’t jump to KS just yet. At five, there’s a lot of other things it could be. I get the anxiety and depression, I really do - are you working with a trainer at all, or on your own? Is there anyone who could get on him and tell you what they feel in the saddle, or watch you ride and give their impression of how the two of you are doing?

[KenaiStudios]

@Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom I have tried several different saddles. From treed to treeless. We do not have a lot of options with saddle fitters, so I have enlisted a trainer friend to look at it and I am currently working closely with a saddle fitter but it’s all distance work. I am hoping to have my vet take a look as well. He’s never actually come up back sore.

I try to do a lot of ground work and include pole work in it. We do not have hills our mountains here so I try to get creative. We do belly lifts, bum tucks and stretches before every ride. We work on short periods of collection. Lateral work and a lot of long and low stretching.
I try to stay as light as possible in the saddle. I try to avoid anything that would have me slam down in the saddle. I feel like I am engaging my core and those that I ride with and ask for opinions say I have good balance. I was trying to find somewhere to take lessons, but since I ride mainly gaited horses those trainers are hard very hard to find outside of traveling 3 or 4 hrs.
He had his teeth done in December and I plan on having the vet check again this week. I haven’t felt any sharp edges, but I realize that doesn’t mean much.
My one trainer friend says I look good but he does look frustrated and says it might just be that he is still figuring out how to move his feet at a gait. But she is not familiar with gaited horses so could be wrong.

@Boomer I was hoping when we moved houses/properties that I left the bad luck spirits behind but seems they have attached themselves to me 🥲

[floppyammy]

KenaiStudios, there are a lot of us here on this board that have had a lot of bad luck with horses. I totally understand where you are coming from and how you are feeling. I had to retire or re-home 5 horses in 5 years. It was heartbreaking and exhausting, emotionally, financially, mentally. I’m sorry you are going through this. Your anxiety and depression are understandable. I can understand how you feel - I had many of the same thoughts and feelings that you do.

I think you need to take a deep breath, try not to panic.
Do you have a trusted vet that you could bring in to evaluate him?
There are many things that it could be that are very fixable.

[Rallycairn]

Deep breath. Or several! DO work with vet/saddle fitter to evaluate your saddle(s), and do keep working on horsey’s (he’s still quite young) and your own fitness, but I hear teeth grinding and I think something fixable like ulcers, poorly fitting tack, etc.

I know it’s hard not to do, but don’t push any panic buttons yet!

[cayuse]

About the teeth chomping. I agree with Rallycairn about the ulcers. My mini’s first symptom of his ulcers acting up in teeth chomping, both in hand and in harness.

[fivestrideline]

How does he move under saddle? I know you’re trying to be kind to him by riding on a loose rein, but if he’s on the forehand or dropping his back (without contact to move into), that can absolutely contribute to the lack of topline and discomfort. No amount of belly tucks or ground work can overcome poor posture under saddle. There are many roads to Rome though, have you been working with a good trainer during all of this? Someone who can help you ask him to lift his back and carry himself?

Just a thought. I’d also consider a week of Ulcergard to see if he changes positively. Horses can get ulcers for any reason at all, even just from general “training”. Next would be a dentist or really good vet with speculum and the works to look at him - there are some gnarly tooth issues that can hide back there and be invisible without the full workup. An impacted baby tooth or molar can cause the grinding and poor condition if you feel like xraying his head.

Good luck out there - I’ve definitely felt what you’re feeling before but just can’t stay away from horses for some reason!

[skydy]

You have mentioned your weight several times. Is that truly an issue as far as your riding is concerned?

[KenaiStudios]

@floppyammy thanks. It is heart breaking and exhausting. I am trying to work through it but at this point it doesn’t take much for panic to set it. We do have our long awaited vet appointment this Friday to check things out.

@Rallycairn & @cayuse thanks. I guess I am a panic forst breath later kind of person at this point but yes, I plan on having him checked for ulcers as well.
@fivestrideline he moves well under saddle but is still learning to move in gait. I do not have a gaited horse trainer in the area and most regular trainers have a hard time helping me. I have taken lessons on trotting horses but it’s hard to translate certain things to the gait. I did participate in a gaited clinic 4 hours away not too long ago, she said he holds himself nicely. I do realize a lot of gaited horses have a problem with hollowing out in order to achieve gait and I do feel a little lost with it despite the clinic. I pick up the reins but he is light in his face so I never have heavy contact. I try not to just pull him up. Sadly a lot of what I know comes from what I am trying to learn online I really need to find someone closer to me to really help in the riding department.
@skydy maybe it’s just in my head because I used to ride large horses and then moved to smaller breeds but I am not exactly small. I love riding pasos, but they tend to be smaller and I see and hear so many people talking negatively about weight (and coming from a family where weight is a big part of the underhanded comments). It’s a bad cycle and I struggle with that. I don’t know if it’s actually contributing to problems or not, besides my mental ones.

[skydy]

Weight is a very difficult subject and many people are loathe to bring it up. If you are concerned that your weight is an issue for keeping your horses sound, please ask a veterinarian, more than one if that is possible. Ask very experienced equestrians, those you respect, about your concerns.

Get answers, and if it is not an issue you will be able to ease your mind about that subject.

[fivestrideline]

Weight is touchy. Trust the people in your circles with your and your horses’ best interest at heart. The 15-20% rule has been tossed around forever, but I have no clue where those numbers came from.

In a similar vein, is there a reason you have chosen smaller breeds? Gaits? Endurance specific? I ask because I have a friend who is a larger rider - she’s TALL and strong but not Big Eq light and slim. After years of riding a 15.2 slim mare and smaller school horse types, she bought herself a bigger horse. He’s tall and big boned and I haven’t heard a single peep of the previously common weight-related comments or anxiety from her. She takes the same spectacular care of him as she did the mare and everything else, but that specific anxiety seems to have faded away. This isn’t to say that bigger is always better, there are plenty of working cow horses that are quite small carrying tall, not-light men all day just fine. I’m just curious why this horse, when your anxiety about horse-rider suitability was front and center in your OP?

I’ve been down the kissing spine route. It’ll mess with your head FOREVER, but at some point you have to just hedge your bets and do the best you can! If it’s not KS, horses will find some other way to be expensive or exhausting at times.

[skydy]

@hallie2

Weight and fitness are touchy subjects-you probably know the rule- you plus tack shouldn’t weigh more than 15% of your horses weight. You sound like your horses’ wellbeing is important to you, they are lucky to have someone who wants to make it right.

This is why I think the OP should ask more than one veterinarian and some very experienced horse people who she knows. Not people on the internet who have never seen her ride.

[TWH_Girl]

My just turned 6 yr old Walker likes to chomp on the bit. It may or may not translate into anything physical. Is that the only thing he does that you are concerned about in terms of agitation? There could be mixed cues you’re giving him that confuse him versus a physical issue, such as squeezing your leg but then inadvertently pulling back on reins. What bit are you using? I often go through several before settling on a few that are acceptable. Snaffles are great for softening work, but a lot of gaited horses will hollow out gaiting in a snaffle and a well fitted comfortable curb bit may help encourage proper movement.
Hills and poles help strengthen gaited horses to hold their gaits better so that’s something to work on. The gaits are like smooth gears you put your horse in and require finesse that you find with your horse. Maybe you two just haven’t quite found that riding groove yet but that doesn’t mean it’s a physical problem. It sounds more like gaited horse- can’t find a good trainer problem.
Good to have the vet check him over for your peace of mind. Don’t be hard on yourself! Your horse sounds lovely and you will figure this out. Where are you located?

[Whoosh]

The mental stress we put ourselves under because we want the best for our animals can be quite suffocating! OP, it sounds as though you have been through quite the ringer in what we all know is an already intense and expensive hobby. It’s very easy to let nerves get the better of us, and nothing to be embarrassed about.

A young horse chomping at the bit can be a sign of a million things or nothing at all (mental growth, etc that will fade with time and fitness). I see no reason to jump to any conclusions right now, but having the vet out is always a good idea so you can rule out anything obvious to a trained eye.

Having said that, I’ve seen you mention that a trainer/lesson isn’t an option because you ride gaited horses. A “cowboy”-type trainer who does a lot of groundwork and starts young horses would not care if you ride gaited horses or not. I know a few such trainers who have worked with many gaited trail-riding types to much success. Many good colt-starters will include trail riding and groundwork as an integral part of their training process. I think someone like this who is “non-denominational” would be a great person to look for, especially since your gelding is also green.

Very often this mental slump we find ourselves in is something we need the help of an external expert to overcome. A professional with a trained eye and less emotional investment is a great option.

[Elliot12]

Have a vet xray the back - it could give you the answer.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Hi @KenaiStudios.

I used to own a Paso Fino mare, got her as a weanling, broke her myself and rode her a lot.

The movements of the back of a Paso Fino in their gait and the movements of the back of a TWH are DIFFERENT. My seat, which had gotten used to the movements of my Paso Fino mare, gets discombobulated trying to influence the few TWH’s I’ve tried to ride. Yes, both breeds gait, but their gaits FEEL DIFFERENT and what worked on my Paso Fino mare has not worked with the TWHs, much to my dismay. Also their back movements while gaiting are very, very different.

My Paso Fino mare did not particularly like my snaffle bits (I am a hunt seat rider, I use snaffles a lot.) A head on collision with a drunk driver left me so weak that my Paso Fino mare decided she could ignore my snaffle bit and I was too weak and my back hurt too much to get her head back up when she wanted to eat anything on the trail.

I spent several hours in a local tack store trying EVERY curb bit there, around 50 of them, on my arm until I found the bit that did have some authority without causing pain for the horse. I found a TWH bit that worked, and my Paso mare really liked that bit. I could not keep contact with this bit but I still had fingertip control, and she was happy. Try to find a gentle curb, it will possibly work much better for both you and your horse. I find that just having a curb in the horse’s mouth starts this beneficial relaxation from the horse’s lower jaw, up over the poll, down the top of the neck, all the way down the horse’s back, something I NEVER got riding bitless (I tried 7 different bitless systems.) I ride the curb bits with sagging reins, just twitching my little fingers for my rein aids with an immediate, full release until the next rein aid.

I have always read that TWH tend to “clack” their teeth when they gait, this is just something that relaxed TWHs tend to do. In other words you might be getting upset over something that is a breed characteristic rather than the horse’s comment on your riding ability.

With horses who have the weaker backs I have found it useful to get up into 2-point and stay up in 2-point until the horse’s back muscles get stronger. I have to do this with my lesson horse, a 30+ year old QH. As the horse’s back gets stronger I need to do this less and less, but it often helps some horses to try and stay in 2-point for the first five minutes or so of my rides. This lets the horse’s back muscles warm up, it encourages the horse to relax his back muscles, and the horse ends up being much happier with me riding him. My current lesson horse is mainly used for WTC lessons on riders who weigh a third of what I do, and he really benefits from me riding the first few minutes up in 2-point. IF I do not get up into 2-point at the start of the ride I DO get “comments” from this horse that I weight 3X as much as his usual riders, but after I let his back warm up without my seatbones in the saddle he stops complaining about my extra weight (135 lbs PLUS my riding clothes, spurs, saddle and saddle pads).

I also found that it can help a lot if I talk to my horse. I talk about exactly what I am going to do, WHY I am doing it this way, the results I desire, and when the horse gives me what I want I praise that horse to the skies, telling him/her what a MARVELOUS, smart, cooperative and wonderful horse he/she is. If I do this every ride the horse seem to start understanding what I am saying when I speak. I have also found that a lot of horses suffer from what I call a “praise deficit”. Praise the horse often, praise them lavishly, halt for a minute or two, scratch their neck right under their mane, and if they do something very well the first time halt the horse and get off. THEN the horse will understand that they did what you wanted them to, instead of going around in a state of confusion because they just cannot tell if they have done well.

You have the basis of becoming a good rider, you CARE about your horses.

[TWH_Girl]

That’s great feedback especially about TWH, Jackie. They are so lovely and fun to ride and often very soft and easy.

OP- if interested, PM me if you’d like some bit recommendations hopefully after a clean vet visit Friday.

[LookinForSpace]

If you haven’t read it yet, Easy-Gaited Horses by Lee Ziegler is the standard recommendation for anyone riding a gaited horse. Liz Graves also has some articles available online that are good.

You probably know all of this, but just in case…

Whatever saddle you use, does the horse’s shoulders have freedom of movement? Walkers tend to have a big stride and use their shoulders more than many horses. I used a dressage saddle to allow my horse to move freely. When calculating the 20% of bodyweight load that a horse can handle, remember to include the weight of the saddle as well as the rider’s weight. A lighter dressage saddle might be better than a heavy western saddle.

I used a Mylar Comfort Snaffle on my gelding which worked very well for him.

Since you’ve had a Paso, you probably know that a gaited horse, including TWH, should be trimmed just like any other breed of horse. Long toes and excessive hoof is not necessary for a TWH to gait properly.

As far as trainers go, dressage is dressage (at the lowest levels anyway) regardless of horse, so you might be able to work with a dressage trainer. There is such a thing as gaited dressage, and western dressage too, if you like.

Let us know if the vet appointment gives you any answers.

ETA: Your post below indicates that your current horse is a Paso, not a TWH. You mentioned both breeds and said your current horse is gaited, and I thought you meant that your current gelding was also a TWH. So my comments on shoulders and hoof trims might not apply.

[KenaiStudios]

@fivestrideline I absolutely understand where your friend comes from. I didn’t think much about my weight when I had the much larger TWH, but I have been in love with the Pasos, their heart and ability to eat up the trail, stay surefooted, run down knee knocker trails and come back to do some jumping or whatever we were in the mood for. Riding a paso is like a smooth sports car where the walker is more like a truck. Both can be fun but I love the thrill of a paso. Sadly it makes me worry about my size and I have often debated if it’s worth it or if I need to go back to larger horses. My boy is paso fino and Peruvian paso mix and is actually just shy of 15h so in paso terms nice sized. And he doesn’t feel small when I ride, but the mind can be quite relentless and mean, especially when things go wrong.
@TWH_Girl his main agitation cue is the chomping. We ride primarily bitless because I haven’t felt a huge need for a bit and when I went to the gaited clinic the trainer said he worked nicely in it and didn’t see a reason to change it up, but at that time he was not chomping on the bit either. He is sensitive to leg cues and if I overdo it he will tell me fairly quickly by tail swishing and overexagerated movements. If he is especially fresh he will throw one or two litte hops in but then its over with. Never had to use spurs on him. The bit chomping has only started about 2 months ago. When I initially started him he was extremely trotty but with consistent work and the clinic I was able to help him figure out his gait, but I can definitely tell he struggles with speeds and I am trying to take my time adding speed at gait. And maybe that’s where his frustration comes from. I live in the swamp in south Georgia, the two main gaited trainers near by are 3 and 4 hrs from me, so hard to get to consistently. I have thought about training with video but not sure how instant feedback would work.

@Whoosh yes it feels like you are suffocating. I am hoping it’s nothing, or at least something considerably easy to fix. We are going through everything with the vet Friday, scope for ulcers, back xrays, feet xray, and dental to rule out what we can.

@Jackie_Cochran I definitely agree with you there. The movements are very different. My paso mare was easy to two point and I did frequently to stay out of her back but she was quick smooth and easy to ride bareback too. My walker was more pacey and at the walk felt like a boat out to rough sea my boy now, as paso fino and Peruvian cross feels different than both. I think the 2 point might be part of the problem I hadn’t considered before. I started him with my stirrups short enough that I could easily 2 point or hoover, but when I went to the gaited clinic she advised me to lengthen my stirrups and really sit. It worked, he has picked his gait up nicely, but maybe now I am too much in his back. I will absolutely try shortening my stirrups again to be able to 2 point and see how that works. I am also not opposed to trying a curb, our other two pasos on property go well in a curb and don’t have any back issues. Do you have any specific recommendations on which to try?
He’s my first horse to ever chomp his teeth, I had one who let his tounge fly in the wind and another who looks like Mr Ed talking with his lips flapping, but never the chomping. It doesn’t feel like a busy body chewing, it actually feels aggravated. If that makes sense.
I am a big believer in talking to your horse and lots of praise. He’s so phenomenal and really has made life easy for me in every aspect. I trust him to be safe and go through questionable places more than some 20 year old been there done that horses.