The hydrant is located in a poor location adjacent to an outside wall. The room the hydrant is in is heated. I want to run a pipe from the hydrant to a frost free spigot on the other end of the room so I don’t have to go into the room to fill buckets. For this to work the hydrant valve will always be open so the water pipe coming through the slab will be full and is only 12" from the outside wall - and the associated frozen ground.
I live in Minnesota. The Frost line is 5’ deep.
The picture will help explain what I’m wanting to do:
What about heat tape on the hose/pipe from hydrant to spigot? And pushing the lever down on the frost free hydrant to protect the pipe in the ground when you aren’t filling buckets? Or are you trying to feed self-filling waterers that need constant water flow?
Personally I would attach the hose and leave it on long enough to fill the buckets and then turn it off and detach and drain the hose when you don’t need it. This protects the hydrant in case of a power outage and heat loss in the room as well.
Just so I am understand your set up. The frost free hydrant is in a climate controlled space? You want to connect it to a spigot through a wall on the other side of the room? If this is correct, pretty simple buy a frost free spigot and install it through the wall. They come in different lengths. The shut off valve is inside the building. Cut a hose, I like to use rubber hoses, buy another female coupling for the male coupling you cut off and attach. The spigot male coupling is the same size as the one on the hydrant. Even though these things are called frost free, non freezing. I have had ones that have frozen on me when it is really cold and windy. And I don’t live in Minnesota, lol. So when installing make the hole through the wall big enough to wrap the spigot with heat tape. Use expansion foam to seal things up.
The desire is to have constant flow, so shutting the valve every day isn’t the goal. Also, the hydrant is in a finished office area - not somewhere I care to have muck boots in and out of regularly.
I’m not concerned about power outages, or loosing heat - even in the coldest of days, I would have several hours to react and generate heat, or drain the lines before the pipes froze.
So, the handle of the little spigot inserted through the wall is in your barn aisle or inside your barn somewhere? I think I understand now - you’re moving your water source from the office hydrant to the aisle of your barn.
Like @gumtree said, I’d heat tape the spigot through the wall and get one of those covers for the spigot knob as well, when not in use.
I appreciate the help so far… but I believe I still haven’t made my question clear.
I don’t have a concern about anything above ground. Everything will be in a heated room - with the exception of the frost free spigot - which I assume is going to work as designed - I’ve use several at the last homes with no problem.
I’m concerned with the section of the hydrant that is below ground. If the hydrant was located in the center of the room I wouldn’t be concerned. However, the hydrant is only 12" from an outside wall. The frost penetrates 5’ into the ground in my area - certainly the cold will pull the heat out from under the slab a few feet and freeze my hydrant as it currently sits. I’m looking for a method to provide insulation to the ground under my shed.
My office is similar, with the frost free located in the bathroom close to the wall. I have it set at 55 too. It’s not an exterior wall, but unheated barn wall (wash stall on other side), so not sure I will have as much of an issue as you, but the previous owners did have heat tape in there, so I assume they were wrapping the hydrant in colder weather…
If you heat tape the hydrant, that should keep it from freezing below ground (which I assume is your question from your drawing? I think some of the other responders were thinking about the spigot or line, both of which should be fine)
I’m in Minnesota too! how fun! Watering horses in Minnesota! Yippee!
If the hydrant was installed below the frost debt there should be no reason to worry. I understand your concern about the slab possibly being a thermal bridge. But if the room is kept at 55 this will also warm the stand pipe that is also a thermal bridge. The slab should act as a insulator for the ground under it. It should trap a fair amount of the “heat” radiating from below the frost line. I suppose if you want some peace of mind. Set a thermometer on the floor near it and see what it reads. A contact one would work best. Or just turn the hydrant off at the end of the day.
I would be as concerned if not more with the frost free wall spigot freezing and cracking/bursting. Flooding the wall cavity, room. Which is why I suggested heat tape. Ask me how I know, lol.
In the end this sort of set up requires a bit of effort and monitoring. Either that or spend the bucks to have a proper hydrant installed where it will be of easier access, use. You could also wrap the stand pipe with heat tape for added protection. Good luck. Horses and cold weather are always extra work. Esp when the power goes out.
I used to have a problem area like yours too – I eventually moved hydrant but until then I stacked bales of old hay along outside wall and covered them with a slanted piece of plywood so that they wouldn’t get completely soaked and freeze defeating the purpose. Unsightly but the bales did insulate the ground and wall enough to keep pipe from freezing.
This is actually the first time in the thread you specified your “question,” although there really isn’t a question anywhere.
You say “new to me,” so that infers that the set up has been this way for a while. When you shut off the hydrant, the water drops down below the frost line, hence no frozen hydrant. You want to leave it open so that you can draw water from inside the barn, so now there is always water above the frost line in an area that may or may not freeze.
Personally, if it’s not broke, don’t fix it. Do you really need an “office” in your barn? What are you doing in your 55 degree “office” that can’t be done in the house? How many stalls are there and buckets are you filling a day? Every connection will leak, eventually. Those types of set ups need attention and tweaking. The hydrant in the warm room is the most simple and least likely to leak everywhere and cause a mess all winter.
OP, I too want to give you a couple of thumbs up for your great drawing. Very clear. I totally understood your question (from the original post), with the help of that amazing drawing.
I have to assume that your worry is based on experience of that portion of the riser freezing in the past.
I am lacking for easy useful ideas. I kind of like the idea of what @danacat posted above.
I do not think heat tape on the exposed part of the hydrant will help significantly enough to prevent your freezing during the cold times.
Since it is a finished office the idea of digging a bigger hole and giving air space around the whole pipe, like the installation instructions for outside auto waterers, probably will not work for you either.
Thanks for the thumbs up on the drawing, and yes, I have had problems with the hydrant in the past. Last year I opened and closed the valve on the hydrant every day - but I didn’t disconnect the hose to allow air back into the system - therefore the hydrant didn’t drain properly and it froze solid - It took me all day, but I was finally able to fee the hydrant again. Then I disconnected the hose everyday - making a wet mess.
I like the idea of a bigger hole and giving air space - I could use more information on the instructions for outside auto waterers. I intend to hide the hydrant in a cabinet - hence the nominal 55F that I said the room would be.
It seems if you are going to do all that digging you might as well just move the hydrant to a place where it is not inside your office and then you can use it as designed (removing the hose) with out an issue.
Is it possibly to dig down below ground level and run your heat tape, and run it right up to the top of hydrant?
My outside watering bowls use heat tape and it works great for them, but the water is also draining back down on them. Personally for me I do not use a hose and keep hydrant open in the winter. My hydrant is in a small heated room, but I am too scared to leave it open with a hose attached in case it froze right up. So I climb into the pump house and fill water pails.
Good luck
I believe your hydrant will freeze below ground level. (Yes my glass is half empty)
Frost that penetrates 5 feet below surface will also penetrate laterally (to some degree) into ground below office floor. The top 2-3 feet will likely remain frost free due to heat delivered from the office floor warming the ground below. I would not rely upon this at a depth of 4-5 feet. My comfort level would only allow me to use the hydrant, then drain by shutting hydrant off.
Trying to thaw pipes below ground is not fun. The little inconvenience of entering office to turn on/off the hydrant will seem minor if you end up toting water from another location in -35 degree conditions.
