How to QH Bars relate to Narrow Medium Wide gullet fit?

[paulaedwina]

It occurred to me (long story) that I don’t actually need a dressage saddle. I have an EZ fit treeless that’s not dressage-legal, so what I need is a dressage-legal saddle for competition. So I started looking for an All Purpose (AP) on Ebay. I found this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190892328658&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

I asked the seller what 7 1/2 inches gullet means in N,M, or W and said I have a draft cross that needs a W. The seller wrote back that she doesn’t know N, M, or W, but that it has FQHB which I take to mean Full Quarter Horse Bars? The seller says that should fit Fella.

Thing is I don’t know how to translate bars to gullet. Would FQHB translate to W?

BTW I’m also asking whether it’s a CC or an AP. I can’t tell from the picture, but it looks like an old AP.

Paula

[WildBlue]

Unfortunately, non-numerical sizing in saddles is as subjective as S/M/L is between human clothing manufacturers (both in terms of overall size and shape). Ditto full- and semi- QH bars.

That said, full is generally wider than semi. Where, exactly, did she measure the gullet? Is that pin to pin, outside to outside or inside to inside? If the measure is inside edge to inside edge of gullet, it’s a really wide saddle. That said, the picture it shows of the spine relief in the rear of the saddle is pretty narrow for a ‘wide’ saddle, but that’s also not uncommon with older or cheaper saddles.

[Fillabeana]

The first trouble is that you have NO idea where the seller measured the gullet or tree to get her 7 1/2" gullet measurement.

Western saddles get measured wrong all the time, as to their gullet width. The lower down you measure, the wider it gets.

Second, English saddles have very different trees than western ones, they have panels rather than bars to distribute the rider’s weight. So saying ‘full quarter horse bars’ is a non-sequitur.

Without getting into it much deeper, I’d go with something inexpensive with good design behind it.
Have you tried any of the Wintec Wide saddles, or perhaps a standard Wintec A/P with a wide tree?
I know Stubben Siegfried saddles are cheap, available and almost indestructible, and come in wide/18" seat, but I think they tend to put your feet out front.
An 18", 32 cm tree Stubben A/P:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/STUBBEN-AP-ENGLISH-SADDLE-32-CM-TREE-18-in-seat-/290966914650?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43befac65a
and another, Stubben 18" seat, 32 tree A/P Wotan:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stubben-Wotan-All-Purpose-Saddle-18-Wide-32cm-Germany-Pad-Stirrups-Leathers-/350855466673?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51b09d8eb1
Older Passier saddles come in 18" wide, also. Not sure the width of this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-Passier-Sohn-Hannover-Century-Saddle-/171115634800?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d7496070
Or how well a wide one fits a round critter.

If you can afford to gamble on a good deal, and buy a $75 saddle from someone who may be ignorant (not stupid, not malicious, but simply ignorant) about english saddles, OK. But the saddle might have a broken tree, might be medium or even narrow rather than wide, or any other thing.

Maybe there are eventer, pony club or even H/J folks who have experience saddling wide, round ponies. Of course, you and your horse are both beyond pony size. But the type of saddle to fit that kind of back, that will put you in a reasonable position for dressage tests up to say first level, should translate over. Someone will have a good idea about good, inexpensive A/P saddles.

[paulaedwina]

Ugh! I think I’m just being impatient. My saddle guy -the one who made the treeless EZ fit is working on an English version for me. I was thinking about having something cheap for the time being, but it’s not like I’m going to be showing this season right? Fella and I have been clicking so nicely I guess I’m just getting ahead of myself.

I guess I just need somebody to talk me out of the tree. I don’t even know why I’m looking!

Sigh. Being obsessive can be so hard sometimes.

Paula

[Carolinadreamin]

Is there some reason you’re looking at an all-purpose instead of a dressage saddle? Our saddle fitter really likes Thorowgoods for a less expensive saddle. Perhaps you can find a used one?

[paulaedwina]

Because I’m a crazy person. I’m feeling impatient and then I run into a saddle on Ebay for $75 and my obsessive kicks in.

Paula:no:

[Fillabeana]

I guess I just need somebody to talk me out of the tree.

It won’t be me.
A tree is supposed to distribute pressure on a wider base, or area.

I feel your pain, though, having two very round, beer-keg-barrelled, mutton withered mares that are really comfortable bareback, but hard to fit a stable saddle to.

Part of the ‘saddle fit’ solution has been to address how the horse braces against the saddle. The horse develops a lean, a one-sidedness, goes with his/her ribs arced one way but not the other, and you get major dry spots, soreness where the saddle goes, and such. It becomes a spiral of self-perpetuated soreness that increases the horse’s habits of using himself wrong, which contributes to saddle soreness, which confirms the horse using himself poorly…

It was not until I could get my mare much more ‘ambidextrous’, using herself better, and thus her back addressing the saddle better, that the saddles I used ‘fit’ her better.

Yes, there are definitely saddles that fit different types of backs. But remember that backs are muscular and flexible, while the saddles are not.
Making a saddle tree flexible like a back, asks for trouble because you can’t distribute pressure effectively if your base is flexible ‘to move with the back’.

The hard part is finding someone who has a true and deep understanding of how a horse should move. There are lots who have a lot of understanding, and know it when they feel it, but they don’t know how to break it down for a ‘difficult horse’ or a ‘bad mover’ so as to improve ANY horse’s movement.
Add that, to the part where if you don’t have someone who is keeping the attitude, cooperation and willing participation of the horse absolutely paramount, you won’t get far…and it’s pretty hard to find someone to help get a horse to ‘fit his saddle’. (Assuming, of course, that it is a reasonable size for the horse. I don’t mean to say that you can take a too narrow, or too wide, saddle to fit a horse it isn’t made to fit.)

When Aktill comes back, he might chime in, he has a better understanding than I do about saddle trees, and so he might explain better.

[NoSuchPerson]

Don’t buy it. You won’t be happy with a cheapo English saddle. In fact, by the time most of the El Cheapo English saddles make it to the age at which they are selling used on ebay for $75, the tree is probably broken.

If you want to get something decent for low level showing but still inexpensive, look for a Wintec Wide or a Thorowgood Broadback that has been lightly used.

[paulaedwina]

It was a moment of crazy. I’m better now.

Paula

[Lori]

http://saddlemakers.org/id198.htm Explains bars with illustrations.

[Ambitious_Kate]

Keep looking, though, your urges to keep snooping out a good saddle will pay off. I did the same thing. Didn’t even have a horse. Started thinking about the type of horse and touring the tack shops looking at used saddles. Got a shark fin withered horse with no real muscling needing work. Found a medium old, old, german all purpose saddle with a cut back pommel and nice gullet, bought it for 250.00 Truly a good quality saddle, though, something that was so well made it has worked really well for me as a dressage saddle to get him into showing with. I can ride him at about 1st level in it. Starting to really want a better dressage saddle now for me. Now my horse has developed topline and back and shoulder muscles which make this once too big for him saddle too small. Heh. However, you have a good idea of what your horse needs so keep looking and you’ll find it.

Just take a look at the wintec and the thorowgoods, as suggested, nice saddles to use for AP and dressage.