Appsolute - great advise. I am too lazy sometimes. I need to be more consistent and focused on setting him (and myself) up to succeed.
[QUOTE=trhlnancy;7271366]
Appsolute - great advise. I am too lazy sometimes. I need to be more consistent and focused on setting him (and myself) up to succeed.[/QUOTE]
You are probably being hard on yourself calling yourself lazy. Patience is the first rule of training horses, and ironically patience is the hardest thing to learn. All of us have a desire for instant gratification to one degree or another, and it is difficult to overcome…
Ugh, my Appy did this to me. First he balked, then he backed up, then he progressed to the spin and bolt. He scared me, and I would tense up and lean forward, (fetal position FTW!) landing me on the ground over his right shoulder more than once.
My knowledgeable barn owner stepped in and suggested some training rides from a lady down the road. I agreed, and she had a few discussions with him until he learned to go forward where he was pointed. He also grew up and acquired more brain cells. (I’m convinced they don’t have their full complement until age nine or so.)
In hindsight, I had no business buying a four year old gelding. But he was pretty and I guess everybody has to do it once. :::sigh:::
My $0.02 – be honest with yourself and decide whether you can work through this on your own without destroying your confidence or getting hurt. If not, engage a professional to get this behavior sorted out before it gets worse.
[QUOTE=microbovine;7271360]
As soon as he spins, use one rein, down low below your hip and double him back around. Then, urge him away from the barn. Wait until he relaxes before turning him back towards the barn. Do this every single time he tries to decide when he’s done working. Repeat daily until he has manners. [/QUOTE]
This is good advice. People have mentioned that this is less about really being spooky & more about wanting to go home. This is my mare in spades: a pheasant flushing into her face & other things that would give legit reason for a ‘spook’ barely affect her. At most, she gets tall & then recovers.
A white cup in the path, or a barrel in the woods & she would act like it was going to kill her, & try to get home via the exact means you describe (spin & run). She is a big strong beast, so I initially had trouble fully counteracting the spin, until my instructor pointed out that would throw away my indirect rein & that I tended to try to pull her around with my hand too high up. I could get her to stop spinning, but she would keep trying to dodge out to one side & head home.
Do as microbovine says, and no matter what you have to do, do NOT let her turn in the direction she wants to go. Nose to knee if needed, keeping hands low, and be sure to keep contact with BOTH reins. The second she stops trying to resist, be sure to release (NOT throw away - keep contact) and drive her straight forward.
Once I learned to do this properly (I was trying, but had the contact/hands messed up), she tried it two or three more times, then quit altogether.
General cure for “spookiness” on the trail (or anywhere) is to make her work: leg yield, shoulder-in, serpentines, etc. They won’t have free brain space to notice as much.
[QUOTE=trhlnancy;7271351]
I have heard that it’s the change in weather; it’s the change in Daylight Savings time; etc. I know all of these probably have had some effect. [/QUOTE]
Yup. Also some barn owners inadvertently make the problem worse by going into winter mode: shortening turnout time due to reduced daylight, giving more grain to make up for the horses getting less grazing, switching to richer hay because it’s supposed to be warming.
When he is acting this way, after I get him headed in the way I want (Not the way he may want), I do get him to go forward. I usually will have him go up and touch it if it was an item (fallen tree that wasn’t there yesterday) before we continue on.
I know some people are big on introducing their horses to scary objects. To me it seems like an overly dramatic response. IMO if the only thing noteworthy about the item is that it’s scary to the horse, well then, it’s not noteworthy at all. The world is full of uninteresting things that I ignore and ride past. Add this item to that list.
I noted that he is less spooky in wide open fields. I thought that maybe he feels safer 'cause he can see anything coming easier. I feel like I have become fairly attuned to when he gets tensed up - I can literally feel a ripple in his muscles. But, it’s when I don’t see/hear anything to alert me, nor does he alert me, that he does this drop and roll movement.
It’s good you are starting to notice when he’s getting tense. I’d work on noticing even earlier. Watch his head and ears. His neck should be in a neutral position, neither held high nor low. If you are by yourself, he may have one ear back and the other forward, or he may flick them forward and back as he listens to his surroundings. When the head goes up and the ears lock onto something, you are about to have a spook. Distract him with work and get his attention back on you. Practice side passes, bending exercises, whatever. (Of course, you should also practice this stuff at other times, so that responding to your requests is a habit by the time you need it.)
I’d suggest a lot of caution as far as whacking him with a crop as punishment for freezing or backing up. Someone I know succeeded in turning a sensitive and slightly spooky horse into a bolter that way. The horse would freeze, the rider would start whacking, the horse would spook and run, the rider would stop whacking because she now needed both hands to grab mane. Can’t really blame the horse for thinking that running away was what the rider wanted; that’s when the whacking stopped, after all. I’d try some kind of work instead: turning in tight little circles, backing, something that’s distracting and onerous. We can calmly walk past this funny looking rock, or we can see how many times you can turn a full circle in thirty seconds. Your choice, pony.
Yup, when horse was a baby 3 yo and being broke he tried those. His trainer booted him into a 360, so he was right back where he started, no escaping by a quick dash to the left.
My boy likes to do the same though thankfully he doesn’t fully bolt with me. Instead we’ll back and back and back and back. I’ve gotten to either making him circle the whole way around and driving forward… or making him back up to the spot (he would MUCH rather face the danger!!)
Whacking him does nothing. It just makes him back up even further. So I squeeze, reward a step. Squeeze. If he starts to turn I attempt to stop him, if he blows through the leg I turn him a full 360 and then make him stop and stand there. Ask him forward again.
We’re slowly getting to the point where he doesn’t fight me. It will take time, and patience.
Think of the scary spot as a trailer. Whacking a horse into a trailer doesn’t work. Pressure and release with great timing does. Sometimes pressure is various kinds of “work”…followed by release towards the scary spot.
Sounds like working on timing of pressure and realease, keeping him in font of your leg in general and not being a mommy is in order.
Remember-if you control his walk FORWARD you’re going to know when his mind is wandering and then you can REGAIN control of his forward walk.
Cleaning up the mess after it already happened is harder than working him the entire time he’s walking out.
Ride the bugger, don’t just be surprised and behind the action when he starts to do his own thing.
OWN every step he takes.
“And on that note - you do not want to keep the ride all negative, when he IS complying, and marching along - frequent praise! Give him a stroke on the neck, and tell him how happy you are with him. Figure out what scritches he likes - my goal is to find a “button” on my horse that makes them perk their ears or sigh with satisfaction. They needs to know not only what is undesirable behavior, but what IS desirable. Make it clear, let him know when he is doing right – and make it something he can enjoy as well. I am astonished that horses even let us ride them, and I try to be considerate of them and make my rides rewarding and enjoyable as possible. I want a horse who LIKES to head out, because they know that there will be fun and rewards to be had – not just a workout full of punishments.”
Great training. Nothing turns a horse or a child sour faster than being constantly corrected without rewarded when he is doing it right. The only way you can learn from a mistake is to be directed to the right way and then rewarded when you achieve it. Pressure and release is all very well, but a really positive, enjoyable reward can work faster and be more lasting- even if it’s just something as simple as a favorite scritch…
Yup, when horse was a baby 3 yo and being broke he tried those. His trainer booted him into a 360, so he was right back where he started, no escaping by a quick dash to the left.
LOL, my late great mare tried the “spin-n-bolt” on me a few times when her “pop a pathetic imitation of a rear” didn’t work on her “I will not leave the barn” attitude. (she loved to pop up in front, it worked for her for years before I got her. That’s why she was sold, she was “scary”…turns out she was spoiled and not scary at all)
We did the “okay, let’s keep turning” thing every time. Once had a co-boarder tell me that’s not how you do canter pirouettes. Another time had a different co-boarder tell me they had no idea that her breed could do reining. :lol:
Being a mare she was smart and learned pretty quick that acting like a pig just made her dizzy. Her bolts weren’t all that scary, big horses can’t drop a shoulder and spin out from under a person as fast as the small ones can.
OP, it’s not a child. Or a dog. Nor will he understand if you have harsh word with him. Just keep adjusting his behavior, counter his protests and be consistent and calm but firm. Correct every undesirable behavior every single time. If you let them get away with someone once in a while because it’s not a big deal at that specific time, they learn to take the chance that they may get results at a bad time later on. One of the biggest mistakes that leads to handling/riding issues is lack of consistency.
Patience and a sense of humor. No fear, no anger. Neither will get you anywhere. And forward, forward, forward. You can harness and control forward movement. Takes a few sweaty saddle pads to get where you want to be, then it takes consistency to stay where you want to be.
OP, I just want to compliment you on your attitude towards the good advice you’ve gotten. You’ve done a much better job of listening and accepting information than lots of folks who come on here do. Take all the good hints to heart and keep up the good work and you and your buddy will be a team in no time.
I only have one hint, which I had repeated to me a million times til I got it. SIT BACK! You will feel like you are leaning backwards at first, but if you keep coaching yourself, you will get it. If you are sitting firmly on your azz, you won’t get flipped forward and unbalanced if he tries his tricks. So sit back, sit back, sit back! (Pierre Cousyn would be a millionaire if he had a dollar for every time he told me that!)
OP you’re not alone. When I first got Fella I was used to dog training not horse training so I had some holes. For example, I clicker train so I was really good at ignoring bad behavior and reinforcing good behavior. Works great with dogs, not so much with an extremely intelligent perch/stb cross (someone already made the observation about draft smarts). I had to be convinced by my trainer that letting him get away with things like rooting the reins out of my hands was just convincing him that he had to take care of us on the trail (one manifestation) and I was learning to be too soft when I needed to be assertive. So Fella started to decide what was going to freak him out on the trail and how he was going to react.
Fast forward -changing my tolerances of his pushy behavior changed both of us. We both improved on the trail -I became more assertive and he didn’t have to take care of us.
We went from, “Nuh huh, I ain’t goin’ past them trees” to “Okay, I’m goin, but if we get et by them horse-eatin trees it’s your danged fault!” :lol:
One of the things on the trail, I think another poster already observed this, is that when I feel like I’m pushing rope Fella is thinking on his own too much and the solution is forward. Whatever that takes -leg, whip, cuss, whatever, the solution is forward.
I also have to concur -proactive is constructive. Retroactive punishment (after the behavior) is counter productive and often confusing.
ETA: Sitting chilly is something I also had to learn. I had to learn that loud, high-pitched, excitable yelling does not translate to “in charge” to my horse. Go figure! :lol:
Paula
[QUOTE=Faceman;7271363]
Perhaps whips work in Indiana where you ride in gentle terrain, but anyone that uses a whip when doing real trail riding in the mountains is an idiot destined to go over the edge. Once again - there are trail horses, and then there are good trail horses. A horse that moseys down the trail in gentle terrain is hardly a trail horse.
A good trail horse doesn’t NEED a whip, because it is properly trained…[/QUOTE]
Wow, that’s the weirdest post I’ve read in a while… Can we start a spinoff just based on this post? lol
1 Like
Yeah that struck me as odd, but I figured wherever Faceman is it may be the case. Celebrate diversity right?
Paula
OP, you said this horse started by running backward on you so please don’t think that backing him to fix his balking is a good idea. It will reintroduce your running backwards issue.
I would follow along to the spin-off. A lot of what that particular poster has said sounds bizarre to me.
And I probably ride in worse places and I guarantee that if the situation warrants a whip we would use it. Except that we don’t carry a whip so are usually forced to break a branch to use instead. On the rare occasion that we need it and it’s usually not encouraging a horse to go along a cliff side…
Enforcing your authority over a piggy horse has to happen no matter where you are and sometimes a pop on the rump is exactly what it takes.
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[QUOTE=Faceman;7271363]
Perhaps whips work in Indiana where you ride in gentle terrain, but anyone that uses a whip when doing real trail riding in the mountains is an idiot destined to go over the edge. Once again - there are trail horses, and then there are good trail horses. A horse that moseys down the trail in gentle terrain is hardly a trail horse.
A good trail horse doesn’t NEED a whip, because it is properly trained…[/QUOTE]
Just in case you didn’t know, the entire state of Indiana isn’t flat and covered in corn. Sure good trail horses are properly trained but they have to be trained first. Starting on flat easy trails with a whip to reinforce the forward aids will result in a trained horse that doesn’t need a whip. You have to mean it and you have to be quick about your correction and reward. It was my mare’s first time seeing bicycles and she was new to trail riding, she’s a different horse now.
It also helps to look at your obedience in the ring at home. If your horse gets a little balky or doesn’t move smartly off your leg in an arena there is no way he’s going on a trail.
[QUOTE=paulaedwina;7271849]
Yeah that struck me as odd, but I figured wherever Faceman is it may be the case. Celebrate diversity right?
Paula[/QUOTE]
I figure it’s funny, I have perhaps never seen a “properly trained” horse since most top riders (I have only seen up to Olympic level in my experience) have a whip in hand just in case…
This is a pretty standard behaviour on GREEN horses - I think it is on page three of their manual that is already installed in their little heads. Be very alert and at the first sign that he is even thinking of pulling that, have the left, or opposite rein on (I think you said he turned right) and ride very forward. I’m sure you will need to be very strong with his breeding. The more he gets away with it, the harder it is to break. Once he is mastered - away you go just fine.
OP, I would attack this from all and every angle you can…
Does he have too much energy? Perhaps less grain and more turnout are in order?
The good news is that you can predict some of the spooks… When he tenses up, he’s giving you a chance to tell him it’s OK. Take charge.
Really take charge EVERY MOMENT. Keep his mind going, make him focus on you. You’re not out there to look at the view. You can do that years from now when his brain cells arrive (per above poster’s comments). Don’t throw away your reins and don’t compromise your position or attention.
My gelding was a bolter when I got him - generally bolting with no warning. He was a pig. But he also hadn’t learned to trust his rider and I hadn’t learned to be in charge. I finally managed to put him on his ass once when he bolted and pretty much nipped it in the bud right then.
Push your guy through/past enough things that make him uncomfortable, and he will finally decide you’re in charge and you’re responsible for the decisions. You can build some of that on the ground, too. No more mommy BS, not when your horse is putting you at risk.
