How to STOP a trail horse from doing a rollback and then bolt

[trhlnancy]

Hey everybody. Need some advise. I have a “small” Belgian (short legs) that has had some prior western training. I usually trail ride alone which I know contributes to his spookiness (new word for dictionary). Originally, he used to do a four footed stop and look. Then, it became a four footed stop, and then a quick wheel to the left. Then, a couple of weeks ago, it escalated to dropping his left shoulder while turning left. The other day, it was a super quick drop the shoulder causing his mother to lose her stirrups; 180 degree turn and mad dash down the trail back towards the barn. It’s the dropping of the shoulder that gets me We were at a walk when he did these rollbacks. That is what I think they are from looking online.

So, the question is: how do I extinguish this rollback “trick”?

PS I have no earthly idea why someone would actually train a Belgian to do western. Supposedly, he could even do a sliding stop. WTH???

Thanks!

[katarine]

The right term is evasion. He learned to leave all by himself, no trainer required.

Keep him busy
Plant a spur in his left ribcage and spank his naughty butt back into forward gear.

[trhlnancy]

He used to do the ole back up routine once I got him pointed in the direction I wanted him to go so I learned to do a turn and once I came out of the turn, I had to “urge” him forward with a pat on the butt.

When he does this advanced maneuver, I am aware that he has seen/heard/thinks he has seen/heard something, and has tensed up. But, it is that seems to have become a much more flamboyant, exaggerated motion. The previous stop and turn did not create my forward movement towards the back of his head - NOT the best place for keeping one’s seat.

I have tried to do shorter rides on trails he and I have ridden more often but he still did it. I know he does better if I tire him out a little bit in the ring but I hate the ring and he doesn’t like it much better.

I love him; just don’t like him as much right now. I seem to have to make myself go out to the barn. I put it off and then use the excuse that it is too late.

Oh well, enough whining. I am going to go ou tto the barn now because it is beautiful here in VA. It’s kind of hard to get motivated when I know what might be in my near future !

[cowboymom]

He’s being what we like to call a pig.

Fine tune your responses-demand that he walk out nice and forward and quickly and make sure you’re RIDING him, not getting toting along. The instant you FEEL HIM TENSE UP slow, or look, or just start to think about his “trick” DRIVE him forward. If he gets around and you don’t catch him with that spur and spank turn him all the way back around where he’s supposed to be going and DRIVE him forward again. Take all the fun out of it.

I would advise dropping the “mother” vibe too-you are his rider and his trainer, not his mommy. I’m sure you just threw that in but it’s telling. Pretend your own mother is going to ride him next, or a small child. You are training this animal to do what you want him to do during a dangerous sport.

ETA we were posting at the same time so I just read your other post. Please toughen up on this horse, don’t love him, don’t like him, just train him. Don’t “pat him” on the hiney, DRIVE him. You’re having these troubles b/c you’re allowing it. He’s not scared, he’s taking advantage of you. Toughen up, Buttercup! He’s acting like a “little Jeffrey” spoiled kid and you’re letting him do it. Discipline him, as in train and educate him to the fact that he can’t do that.

[katarine]

Ride him. That will fix everything.

And that’s the last I have to say about mommy’s bad ponykins.

[Faceman]

There are trail horses, and then there are good trail horses. A properly trained trail horse (and there honestly aren’t many around) is trained to look to his rider for security rather than flee or head for the security of the barn (home). Not only is that important to avoid behaviors like your horse is exhibiting, but also so that the horse will not leave you 20 miles from nowhere if you get unseated for one reason or another. Part of training a horse properly for trails is to instill trust and overcome “monsters” as a team to the point that the horse instinctively looks to you for security and direction. If it were me (which it’s not, of course), I would go back to square one and build that foundation. It’s not easy - I bred, raised, and trained trail horses for over 20 years, and spent the first 3 years of their lives laying that kind of foundation before they ever saw a saddle. Anyone can “sack out” a horse, which is all most people do, but to condition them enough to alter and redirect their basic natural instincts is a long process…

[trhlnancy]

I think that square one is where I have to go. I think there is a reason his last owner sold him. He is more spooky than the jumper that I leased that had never been out of the ring. He is not the typical draft personality when under saddle.

I acknowledge that I need to be more assertive and I will have to be repetitive as I return to basics :no:. I do not expect him to “look out for me” as I hear other riders say. I did think I was looking out for him but, obviously, he doesn’t feel it.

By the way, there is a stern conversation with him after he does this.

I do own up to my responsibility with letting him get away with SOME things as long as it isn’t unsafe. But, this is totally unacceptable.

Okay, no more baby-ing him. I am the BOSS of him!

Thanks for all ya’ll’s input.

I am outta here to 'da barn.

[BuddyRoo]

Learning how to do a proper rollback or somesuch is not the problem. My mare has a very handy roll back as well as a sliding stop and she doesn’t spook at anything. He’s just using his tools for evil instead of good.

A “stern conversation” afterwards makes no sense to me fwiw. You need to set him up to succeed, pay attention, and be ready to ride through. That’s how bomb proof trail gods/goddesses are made. They have a confident rider who sees the potential boogeymen and pushes through that effectively.

If I had to guess, I’d guess you’re being kind of a passive rider. Reactionary. If you see a mailbox, a garbage can, a stump cut off, a fancy purple flower, a grocery bag flipping in the wind–your instinct should be “that’s spookable…get ready and get past” not “by golly, that horse got me again, let’s have a discussion.”

Active participation will probably get you further than any post game discussions.

[cowboymom]

A bomb proof trail horse for an individual rider has more to do with who is riding him at the time than any past experiences.

I guarantee that if my husband rode the OP’s horse for a day he wouldn’t be “spooky”.

You can’t pre-train a horse for every rider, ESPECIALLY when the rider is riding out alone. That’s a relationship between that one horse and that one rider, nothing else. At some point the rider has to bring it no matter which horse they’re riding.

[Ponyclubrocks]

I used to have a horse with a similar habit. He only did it when I trail rode alone. I don’t know what kind of bit or bridle you are using,(English/western etc) but I had the most success riding with two opening reins, that put a stop to the sudden 180 degree spin. He might hop his front end a few feet to the left but the right opening rein limited the range of motion ( and thus enabled me to stay on board!). Then I would put leg on and urge him forward. Over time as that evasion no longer gave him the result he wanted, he gave it up entirely. Good luck to you! I hate spinners!

[analise]

I have a lot of experience with draft horses. The thing I’ve noticed is that the “typical draft personality” tends to surface as they known their place. My guy sweet and friendly and quite laid back. If he spent any amount of time in the custody of someone who gave him too much leeway and backed off when they thought he might be about to spook…he’d realize really fast just how much he can get away with. He’s a smart pony.

Anyway, my point. Most people I’ve seen with “spooky” drafts actually have drafts who’ve figured out how to get away with stuff. Most drafts I’ve seen who do the kinds of thing you’re describing do it because they know they can and that their rider/handler won’t stop them.

Disciplining after the fact is a start (and making sure you turn right back around march in the direction you wanted to go)…but the trick really is to be aware of when he’s about to pull his trick and defuse it before it happens and that does mean riding more actively.

An example I can think of (not on the trail, but still)…sometimes we school jumping. Sometimes Kieran gets lazy. The height of jumps we’re doing isn’t that impressive, he can practically walk over them if he wanted to. We’re talking most of the time around between 2’ and 2’6". He has at least once trotted over them. Anyway, the point is that sometimes he gets right up to the jump and loses all momentum or just kind of throws himself over it instead of properly jumping. And that’s my bad for not keeping him on the aids.

So we come around and do it again and I think “BY GOD YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS RIGHT YOU JERK!”. I don’t mad. I don’t beat him. I just get determined, and it translates into me riding more assertively and he knows I mean it. And he jumps nicely and we end the ride.

So you need to go into every trail ride with the mindset that you’re the one leading the ride and that he will listen to you, no matter what. And that there’s nothing truly scary out there, no excuses for running home. I usually laugh at whatever makes Kieran do the stop-and-stare and we keep on walking. He doesn’t get to stay stopped. He gets the look and then we keep moving forward.

[Faceman]

@BuddyRoo;7271018

A “stern conversation” afterwards makes no sense to me fwiw. You need to set him up to succeed, pay attention, and be ready to ride through. That’s how bomb proof trail gods/goddesses are made. They have a confident rider who sees the potential boogeymen and pushes through that effectively.

Absolutely. Negative reinforcement is NOT the way to build trust and confidence in a trail horse…

[Appsolute]

In my experience - most of the time “spooking” isn’t because the horse is actually scared, it is because they know it is a fantastic way to do what THEY want, rather than what YOU want. My horse tends to want to ZOOOOM home - and she will use spooking as an excuse to scoot or bolt home faster, its not because she is scared, it is because she is SMART.

He has your number, and has figured out this little game he can play on you to get his way, he tested the waters and it worked, so he escalated it. I have seen many horses develop “spooking habits” as it is a great evasion – not because they are naturally flighty horses (I am betting your drafty doesn’t spook and whirl in his paddock).

Like others have said, forward forward forward! Become VERY attune to his body language, and catch those spooks BEFORE they happen. When my THINKS about adding a spook, she gets put on the bit, and asked to side pass - if she does manage to sneak in a spook, she gets a strong aids, corrected (including voice) and sent immediately to WORK. They need to learn that spooking results in MORE WORK and not getting THEIR WAY. Make it NOT fun for them.

And on that note - you do not want to keep the ride all negative, when he IS complying, and marching along - frequent praise! Give him a stroke on the neck, and tell him how happy you are with him. Figure out what scritches he likes - my goal is to find a “button” on my horse that makes them perk their ears or sigh with satisfaction. They needs to know not only what is undesirable behavior, but what IS desirable. Make it clear, let him know when he is doing right – and make it something he can enjoy as well. I am astonished that horses even let us ride them, and I try to be considerate of them and make my rides rewarding and enjoyable as possible. I want a horse who LIKES to head out, because they know that there will be fun and rewards to be had – not just a workout full of punishments.

[enjoytheride]

[QUOTE=Faceman;7271196]
Absolutely. Negative reinforcement is NOT the way to build trust and confidence in a trail horse…[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I carry a whip on the trail and I use it. I want my horse to go forward when I say so no matter what. My mare met bikes on the trail over the summer and I made liberal use of my whip to motivate her feet. If I didn’t she would have turned tail and ran. By the end of the ride she marched right past the bikes without blinking or snorting while my whip was silent. She needed to learn that not only was I in charge but she had nothing to fear about the horse eating bikes.

I do agree that it needs to be fixed before it starts, the escalating behavior tells me that the horse has gotten away with more and more to get to this point.

[onelanerode]

Is he a pig on the ground too? Pushy, mouthy, gets in your space, barges ahead of you (or lags behind), etc.?

If he is (and I’d be willing to bet his ground manners could stand some improvement), that’s where you start. Increased respect on the ground will only help things under saddle. His responses should be prompt and “Yes, ma’am” and not “Whatever” or “Eff you, don’t wanna.” They are too big to have bad manners.

[trhlnancy]

Yes - ground manners need lots of work. Always have so I worked on that today also! I just feel mean when I have to speak harshly with him. I know I have to do it but I just think about when I am out in public, and I hear a parent speaking harshly to their children. So, I corrected everything unacceptable today and praised when deserved!

[trhlnancy]

Thanks everybody! Just got back from the barn. Spent time on his ground manners in crossties before even getting on him. Did not go out on the trail just rode around in the ring and a small paddock.

I do make him finish rides whenever he displays this behavior so he is not totally getting away with it. I totally own up to my part in this but I also know that he seems more up. I have heard that it’s the change in weather; it’s the change in Daylight Savings time; etc. I know all of these probably have had some effect.

When he is acting this way, after I get him headed in the way I want (Not the way he may want), I do get him to go forward. I usually will have him go up and touch it if it was an item (fallen tree that wasn’t there yesterday) before we continue on.

I noted that he is less spooky in wide open fields. I thought that maybe he feels safer 'cause he can see anything coming easier. I feel like I have become fairly attuned to when he gets tensed up - I can literally feel a ripple in his muscles. But, it’s when I don’t see/hear anything to alert me, nor does he alert me, that he does this drop and roll movement.

So, today was all about going back to the basics. I am reminding myself that I am so lucky to have a horse in my life; that it is not all about being on his back!

Thanks again. Nancy (and Stonewall)

[Appsolute]

He is a HORSE NOT A CHILD!! And understands like a horse - not a child. Have you ever watched horses interact in pasture? How the “boss” horse will swiftly and effectively punish any out of line behavior? That is what he understands.

And you do not need to “speak harshly” you need to be VERY CLEAR with your physical signals. Do not muddy the water. Be clear, and very very consistent.

Do not feel bad about correcting him. It is for his own good, letting him get away with crap is not in anyone’s best interest. Be his leader. Be his rock, one he can turn to for direction, and trust to follow. He will feel much more secure, and be a “better” horse when he has a confident leader showing him the way.

Do feel bad about letting poor behavior go unchecked. About being inconsistent and confusing to him. But never feel bad about being firm leader.

[microbovine]

This has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of western training. he is trying to get away with running back to the barn. He is barnsour and spoiled. Put him in a snaffle type bit because you’ll need to stop him before he takes off and you don’t want to tear his mouth up in the process. As soon as he spins, use one rein, down low below your hip and double him back around. Then, urge him away from the barn. Wait until he relaxes before turning him back towards the barn. Do this every single time he tries to decide when he’s done working. Repeat daily until he has manners. You don’t need to go back to groundwork. You need to ride him. A lot. If you don’t stop this behavior immediately, it will get worse and much more dangerous. If you are afraid, get a trainer to help you.

[Faceman]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7271293]
I disagree. I carry a whip on the trail and I use it. I want my horse to go forward when I say so no matter what. My mare met bikes on the trail over the summer and I made liberal use of my whip to motivate her feet. If I didn’t she would have turned tail and ran. By the end of the ride she marched right past the bikes without blinking or snorting while my whip was silent. She needed to learn that not only was I in charge but she had nothing to fear about the horse eating bikes.

I do agree that it needs to be fixed before it starts, the escalating behavior tells me that the horse has gotten away with more and more to get to this point.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps whips work in Indiana where you ride in gentle terrain, but anyone that uses a whip when doing real trail riding in the mountains is an idiot destined to go over the edge. Once again - there are trail horses, and then there are good trail horses. A horse that moseys down the trail in gentle terrain is hardly a trail horse.

A good trail horse doesn’t NEED a whip, because it is properly trained…