How to train the mature horse (12 yo) to stand for farrier

[Abbie.S]

I started a Morgan gelding who appears, from the exterior, to be an extremely calm horse (and he is), but he’s also mouthy/pushy and shows his anxiety in this way. Anxiety doesn’t always manifest in fear responses or the kinds of things we typically think of when we think of nervous horses. And yes, he also had a very similar routine - he’d go to put his mouth on you but then retreat quickly as he knew what was coming in response.

Bottom line with him, and the same with your horse - if you’re responding to something he’s already done, you’re late. You need to catch him in the act of thinking about it and either redirect his attention to what you DO want him to be doing or, if he goes to try it, you let him create the correction. I think you mentioned earlier in the thread letting him meet your elbow, which is an excellent way to deter a horse from getting mouthy because HE creates the pressure he ran into, not you. When you have to come at a horse, you’re late - if you’re already there when he goes to do something and he makes the error of running into your elbow, or a foot-long chunk of a broom handle (which is what I used for said Morgan gelding) he thinks he did it to himself. He’s a lot more likely to heed that lesson.

Without seeing your farrier work versus you work, it’s impossible to know for sure what the difference is but my guess is the energy and timing of your farrier is the main component. Consistent handling in this way will surely help him become more relaxed, but like the Morgan gelding, he will probably need this way of handling for his entire life. The smart ones usually do.

[SonnysMom]

A friend of mine had a barrel horse that would stand single tied all day but did not cross tie at all.

Maybe as a temporary solution you could put a grazing/cribbing muzzle on while the farrier works on him. This way he can’t nip. I don’t see a long term issue with the farrier being 100% in the next 5 or 6 weeks before he is due to be shod again. Don’t cross tie for the farrier just hold him. The cross ties likely make him a bit clausterphobic.

In between farrier visits you should work on him standing well for the farrier and working on the mouthiness. Other posters have provided a lot of good information regarding that.

[Leather]

@SonnysMom

A friend of mine had a barrel horse that would stand single tied all day but did not cross tie at all.

Yeah I’m guessing that if he’s a former ranch horse he’s likely not spent a lot of time in cross ties.

One of my mares was a ranch horse and will stand single tied all day long or held with with a loop in the lead.

Hold her short on the lead and she gets very anxious and dances because she thinks that you’re asking her to do something.

The loose lead rope is essentially her “parking brake.”

[Foxtrot_s]

Does the farrier try to accommodate the horse? (did not read all of this). He may be a bit shivery and cannot raise his foot high.

[beau159]

@BlueDrifter

I don’t leave him cross-tied for long because he will paw and I don’t want to ruin his shoes. Do you think it is okay for him to paw on a rubber mat until he stops fussing?

He will NOT ruin his shoes.

However, I too am not a fan of leaving a horse cross-tied unattended.

@BlueDrifter

This might be a crazy question – but is the behavior of pulling back immediately after trying to nip/mouthy a game? His pulling back means that he knows a swat or something is coming – if he were truly trying to nuzzle he wouldn’t pull back? I hate to say he has intent to play, but it sure seems that way.

No, it means that you weren’t watching him close enough. If he has time to pull his head away from you as you are trying to swat him, you are correcting him much too late. IMO. You should be “going in for the kill” right as he is. Pay super super close attention to him. The signs to bite are there. Go ahead and allow him to make the mistake (because horses learn by making mistakes) but you just need to act sooner. And some might disagree with me here, but make sure YOU. HIT. HIM. This is not a game. Biting/nipping is serious. So you need to smack him like you mean it, so he doesn’t do it again. There are very, very few things that I will hit a horse for, but biting is one of them. I don’t take that lightly. Think of how horses interact in the wild and apply that concept, because it’s one that horses understand. You need to “bite him back” in a sense.

@BlueDrifter

Would more time being tied to patience tree transfer to farrier time? That is the only thing I can think of for now. His behavior seems to be impatience, not pain or fear.

Well it sounds like he does fine at the patience tree, so I don’t think more tree time would help.

But I do think more farrier time would help. So, “be a farrier” every day until his next visit. Yes that means you standing there for a few minutes, holding each leg and fiddling with each one. But if that’s what it takes to get him to stand nicely, that’s what it takes.

As others have said, it sounds like this horse would benefit from more ground work as well.

[Emily_amp_Jake]

My mare has been going through a phase where she didn’t want to pick up her back legs due to mud being encrusted in her hair and it being painful.
I used several of the tactics mentioned in this thread, including moving her feet around the first couple times she wanted to pull away, and watching the previously shared Clinton Anderson video was helpful as well.

Ultimately what has been helping my mare is daily hoof handling, lots of rewards/scratches/sugar-free cookies for picking up her feet; and her last trim/shoeing I gave her some CalmEz stuff and since then she’s been SO much better all around. I don’t think we’ll need it for her next appointment, but we will see!

[mwh]

BlueDrifter - I just wanted to say, I feel your pain as I am in a similar position with my 6yo YH - biting, nipping, fidgeting, pushy, trying to snatch his feet etc etc. Like you I know much of his mouthiness and biting is anxiety related also and that he responds best to very clear, very black and white rules for his behaviour. We"re a work in progress. And like you, I am so embarassed. My previous YH and schoolmaster were both perfect gentleman and a delight for the farrier.

Every time I work with him, or groom him, I spend time picking up, holding and placing his feet. And we"ve been doing A LOT of groumdwork, especially while I’ve been rehabbing him from an jnjury, through that I have become much better at learning to recognise and shut down behaviour before it occurs - my dressage whip is my best friend and now merely raising it when he starts thinking sbout nipping is enough. Just reading above, the CA approach holds a lot of appeal, except not an option for me due to his injury, and also clicker training. My boy is super smart (but very immature, with an absolute toddler brain), so I can see him loving that.

My farrier is amazing, super patient and meticulous (much needed given corrective shoeing for the injury). I am super keen not to lose him. At its worst, we needed 3 people - farrier, apprentice to help hold the foot and one to hold the head. Now down to 2!

I’ve added magnesium oxide to his diet which, along with consistent groundwork, is improving his overall behaviour. I’ve also started ACE’ing him just to help take the edge off the behaviour and so he can learn to settle. Plan to do this about 6 or 8 times, and combined with all of the above and hoping he will be much improved. Even most recently, seeing good signs of progress as he stood perfectly still for hot shoeing his hins.

So I don’t have any easy answers or a perfect solution. I have yet to get him standing still and quiet in the wash bay for instance. I’m following a lot of the same advice, it’s slowly working and clearli improving, but still more work to do.

Goiod luck.

[kande04]

@DMK

In addition to the training approach, I would also give him bute 2-3 days before the next app’t (1gr/day for 3 days), if you don’t see a significant difference, it’s a cheap effective way to absolutely rule out pain…

Nothing can absolutely rule out pain, and in fact, bute will barely touch some kinds of pain.

[kande04]

@midkniggit

How is he if you pick up his feet and move them all around like the farrier does? Do you have someone who can hold him while you mimic a farrier visit?

I got a donkey a few months ago, and she was terrible about her feet. Her first farrier visit was awful - blowing back, kicking, yanking her feet away. My farrier was a great sport and at least got her overgrown hooves nipped down and lightly rasped. Over the next few weeks, I started by rubbing her all over, including belly and legs, then picking feet up briefly, praising and immediately setting down before she tried to yank them away. Then I held them for longer periods of time, doing more to the hoof each time. I stretched her legs forward, backward, and sideways. She’s been getting better and better with each farrier visit, with consistent work in between. The kicking is pretty much gone at this point.

Donkeys are base narrow and terrified of falling, and for good reason considering where they developed their fear of falling. What works with donkeys is to avoid trying to pick their feet up too high, because when the farrier tries to get under them or pick their feet up high enough to work on them, that will make them feel like they’re going to tip over and they’ll do anything to keep themselves upright.

And yes, consistent handling is key, because once they’ve been tipped it takes a lot of handling to convince them that it won’t happen again.

[candyappy]

If his biggest issue is being “mouthy” ( and wanting to bite) and then jerking back in anticipation of being hit, then why not muzzle the horse and have someone hold him for his farrier visits?

He is lacking respect for his human handlers, pure and simple. The remedy for that is ground work on manners and consistent , competent handling.

[zakattack]

I have not read all replies but - what if you give him a hay net to munch on while he is standing for the farrier? It gives his mouth something to do and his mind something to focus on, and is a reward of sorts for being handled by the farrier.