How to train the mature horse (12 yo) to stand for farrier

[BlueDrifter]

My former ranch horse hasn’t been easy in a lot of situations, but we have been making progress. One area still remaining is getting him to stand nicely for the farrier.

He will snatch his foot back, fidget, bite the cross ties, lean, nip at farrier’s back (well, tries too… but I catch it) flip his head so much it disrupts the shoeing, and then let the full weight on his head be suspended by the cross-ties. He does this even if not cross-tied and I am holding the lead rope.

He does not have arthritis or anything pain related. Farrier is very patient, doesn’t want to use drugs to be shod. We manage to get through the shoeing, but it takes longer and I am embarrassed that he is so ill-behaved.

Would more time being tied to patience tree transfer to farrier time? That is the only thing I can think of for now. His behavior seems to be impatience, not pain or fear.

He stands well enough in cross ties to be saddled, but otherwise does not get tied much. He is head-shy and has pulled back several times - once when stepping on lead rope I left attached, once when I accidentally sprayed his face in wash rack, once when I fly-sprayed him while cross-tied. I have had a couple of near misses where he composed himself before going all out and struggling. I don’t leave him in cross-ties for fear he will shy and pull back at something yet unidentified.

[Manybees]

I had the same problem with my horse. She also tends to be a little lacking in the patience department. Threats and whacking were only a little helpful. I ended up clicker training her. I first taught her to ground tie with clicker training to learn to stand still for a reward- I was surprised how that skilll has been helpful under saddle too. Then I rewarded her for allowing me to hold her foot up (and bang on it, first on the bare foot then banging on a shoe held against her foot) for progressively longer periods. You could also have a friend help, with you holding and the friend acting as the farrier. I trained my horse around smoke too as she is hot shod.

I think you are probably right about the patience tree helping, but even if you have a high tie point maybe use a blocker tie ring to be safe?

[Macimage]

You will have to spend more time handling, picking, holding, tapping, etc. his feet. That will be more helpful than a patience pole. Start really small with just asking him to pick it up and put it back down before he can snatch it. Then every day add a bit more. It’s really just more training. Very short sessions several times a day are more helpful than one long session.

[kande04]

@BlueDrifter

He does not have arthritis or anything pain related.

This is something we can’t know, so he may very well have some kind of pain somewhere and there’s no way for us to know that, or know how severe it is if he has it.

If a horse knows what he needs to do and isn’t afraid to do it, then it takes very little to motivate him to do it. So I’d say he’s either fearful or otherwise uncomfortable, because if he wasn’t he wouldn’t be so unhappy.

If you want to know, either learn how to clicker train, or find someone who knows how, because it’s a good way to “diagnose” problems. If an experienced clicker trainer can’t get the horse to stand for hoof handling then IMO, that points to pain or mechanical difficulty, because clicker training will address any mental/emotional discomfort.

[DMK]

In addition to the training approach, I would also give him bute 2-3 days before the next app’t (1gr/day for 3 days), if you don’t see a significant difference, it’s a cheap effective way to absolutely rule out pain…

[kande04]

@WildGooseChase

2. If he is putting you in an unsafe position, or you’re unable to hold his foot while he tries to get it from you, I would try to do this in a round pen/enclosed arena, where you can move around. If he goes to snatch it away, send him off in a circle on a 15 foot line. Make him work! Move those feet for a few minutes. Don’t let him poke around either, make him lose some weight, as they say. After a minute, stop him, ask again, and if he snatches away, send him around a few times with gusto.

Just be aware that you may end up with a permanently damaged horse from ramming him around on small circles. And just because the damage doesn’t show up immediately, doesn’t mean that it isn’t there, or that it won’t be permanent.

[kande04]

@DMK

In addition to the training approach, I would also give him bute 2-3 days before the next app’t (1gr/day for 3 days), if you don’t see a significant difference, it’s a cheap effective way to absolutely rule out pain…

Bute does not absolutely rule out pain. It may take the edge off, but meds don’t cure pain in horses any more than they do in humans.

[DMK]

No one, least of all my post stated, suggested, implied or led or even approached the idea that NSAIDs were a “cure” for anything. #rollyeyes

Before one goes fully down the path of behavioral, it’s a fairly standard plan to go the extra mile to rule out pain/discomfort. The horse in question may not be arthritic (first and most obvious choice), but there could be some soft tissue discomfort. will you “cure” it with bute? No, but since that wasn’t on the table for discussion, we can move on. If you have a horse who is considerably better for the farrier after a few days of a low level of bute that tells you some or all of your problem is pain related and you can adjust your plan accordingly.

[Haylter]

Honestly this does sound like he has something pain related or had a real bad experience in the past…I would consult with vet about giving him the appropriate amount of bute or banamine the appropriate time before the appointment or perhaps Gabapentin. I would also try to exercise him before farrier. Has he behaved like this for other farriers or just the one…honestly horses behave differently for different farriers. Is the farrier there for other horses in between your horse’s shoeing? If so it may be worth paying for a “short n sweet play session” IE farrier just handles horses feet for a few minutes. Please please no patience tree.

[WildGooseChase]

@kande04

Just be aware that you may end up with a permanently damaged horse from ramming him around on small circles. And just because the damage doesn’t show up immediately, doesn’t mean that it isn’t there, or that it won’t be permanent.

That is exactly why I suggested a 15 foot line, and I never once mentioned ramming him around in a small circle. Forward trotting, yielding the hind and forequarters. “Move those feet” refers to literally moving his feet. Can be any gait as long as their not dawdling… A nice forward walk/trot would suffice. Maybe I should have been a bit more specific. There is a HUGE difference in working a horse hard and working a horse unsafely. A couple weeks of working in smaller circles will be just fine.

It also takes a ton of consistent small circles to cause issues. So unless she is doing this every day for the rest of his life, with no rest days, I highly doubt she will experience issues directly related to the circles themselves.

[x]

When I’ve had a horse like this, sometimes standing in front of him with a big armful of hay and letting him eat while his feet are done have often solved the problem.

[S1969]

@DMK

No one, least of all my post stated, suggested, implied or led or even approached the idea that NSAIDs were a “cure” for anything. #rollyeyes

Before one goes fully down the path of behavioral, it’s a fairly standard plan to go the extra mile to rule out pain/discomfort. The horse in question may not be arthritic (first and most obvious choice), but there could be some soft tissue discomfort. will you “cure” it with bute? No, but since that wasn’t on the table for discussion, we can move on. If you have a horse who is considerably better for the farrier after a few days of a low level of bute that tells you some or all of your problem is pain related and you can adjust your plan accordingly.

Agreed.

It’s not unheard of for otherwise sound looking horses to experience discomfort from having the farrier lift/hold their legs for a while and/or having to balance on 3 versus 4 legs. It won’t hurt to try a bute trial and see if discomfort is a contributing factor rather than just a training issue.

My farrier has to trim one of mine fairly low; so it’s definitely more work for him. She has had an injury and even though she tends to appear relatively sound to the farrier, her behavior suggests otherwise. She is retired due to injury, so he’s not totally unaware. But the true test is trying to get her to hold her back feet up too high for any length of time.

[merrygoround]

You say the horse has no physically issues. Based on what?

He may benefit from a litttle Bute.

He may also, despite, your farrier, benefit from an oral dose of dormosedan, along with the above described behavioral training. Picking up his feet and getting a reward.

Usually after a several dormosedan mediated shoeings they settle and decide it isn’t something to fuss about, and the dormosedan can be discontinued.

Make sure the farrier is not over lifting those feet.

[midkniggit]

How is he if you pick up his feet and move them all around like the farrier does? Do you have someone who can hold him while you mimic a farrier visit?

I got a donkey a few months ago, and she was terrible about her feet. Her first farrier visit was awful - blowing back, kicking, yanking her feet away. My farrier was a great sport and at least got her overgrown hooves nipped down and lightly rasped. Over the next few weeks, I started by rubbing her all over, including belly and legs, then picking feet up briefly, praising and immediately setting down before she tried to yank them away. Then I held them for longer periods of time, doing more to the hoof each time. I stretched her legs forward, backward, and sideways. She’s been getting better and better with each farrier visit, with consistent work in between. The kicking is pretty much gone at this point.

[candyappy]

I would tie him for extended periods. I would also work at holding up his feet for extended times too and do it a lot.

When we clean out feet or tie for grooming/ saddling it is really not much time at all. I think the best thing for my horses and mule was when my daughter was in school and I would work / ride my 3 every week day. I tied them all up and had them stand while I worked or rode the others.

They got impatient at first but after doing it daily soon they just cocked a leg and waited patiently for their turn.

[TheHunterKid90]

Even a bute trial may not rule out all pain. Bute is fairly ineffective below the ankle…ketoprofen is a painkiller that seems to have an affinity for feet and lower leg, I have seen more than one horse come completely sound on it that no other drugs touched.
if pain is completely ruled out, I would work extensively on picking up his feet, you can use a lead rope or lariat to pick them up if you’re worried he will get away from you so to speak. I like to teach my horses that I am always in charge of their feet. If you control the feet, you control the horse.
And lastly, all mine tie, either on a patience pole, pulley suspended from a large tree or rafters of the indoor or on a tie rope in the corner of every stall in the barn. They learn patience and they learn that nothing they do will get them untied quicker than standing quietly.

[BlueDrifter]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Pain: he has been vet checked and chiro’d, and passes both. Chiro comments on how loose and flexible his legs are. His neck? Sometimes needs adjustment and I think it is from head-shy/pulling back. But that said, I guess we do not know if there is some pain. He is 12 and an ex ranch horse, there could be something we can’t see. I can try the bute, not a bad idea.

Patience: I tied him to a patience tree (a real one). He fussed for about a minute and then stood fine for an hour. I think it is the cross-ties and people working around him that triggers him. In the case of the farrier, we are afraid of him nipping rather than nuzzling her back, so either me or her apprentice seem to be around his head, and that seems to invite his mouthy behavior.

I don’t leave him cross-tied for long because he will paw and I don’t want to ruin his shoes. Do you think it is okay for him to paw on a rubber mat until he stops fussing?

Other farriers: I have only had two farriers since I purchased him, and yes, he has done it to both and their assistants.

Clicker training: I have done clicker training with him, and he is very food motivated. I haven’t done clicker training on how to stand still. Usually it is a reward for good transitions. I will need to read about how to do stand still.

Handling feet: This will be the harder part. He will let you hold them and bang on them for awhile – just not as long as a farrier would. I would like him to hold his feet up himself, instead of me holding them. Need to figure out how to train for that.

He was shod yesterday. I made sure to exercise him before she came, and I switched to using his rope halter vs his web halter in the cross ties. Farrier was also on a tight schedule, so she had “sterner” energy with his antics. It was probably his best shoeing – but still a PITA. The biggest being his mouthiness.

I have faith her method of disciplining, as she has a Hancock bred ranch horse too and is quite the horsewoman – and she said I am not being firm enough when he is mouthy. This horse is very head-shy – likely from being mouthy with prior owner(s) – and I have gone from hitting back, pinching his lips, letting him run into my elbow (hard), thumping under chin, 3 sec rule, hitting his chest, backing him up, etc – just everything, and he thinks it is “gelding games” and it just got worse. I did the best with staying out of range and ignoring it, hoping it would extinguish on it’s own. But maybe she is right? He is a tough horse and my trainer says “he is not easy,” and perhaps he needs stronger discipline than the average horse?

Her sternness while shoeing did lead to a better shoeing – he got quite a few elbows for being mouthy and for leaning on her – and it seemed to help. I think he could sense that no one had time for funny business.

This might be a crazy question – but is the behavior of pulling back immediately after trying to nip/mouthy a game? His pulling back means that he knows a swat or something is coming – if he were truly trying to nuzzle he wouldn’t pull back? I hate to say he has intent to play, but it sure seems that way.

[Abbie.S]

Mouthiness is a external manifestation of anxiety.

Pulling back is not a game or an attempt to play. It’s a horse that isn’t totally broke to stand tied and has anxiety about having his feet taken away from him for extended periods of time.

Horses want to know where they stand. Some need firmer guidance than others. It is entirely possible this horse isn’t getting enough guidance from you as to how he is supposed to act and so he’s doing what all horses do, which is try and figure out where he stands with you/the farrier by testing the waters. This is not “behavior” - it is every horse on the planet’s way of determining where he stands with any other being he comes in contact with.

You have a horse who is hasn’t learned how to handle pressure around his head, is not totally broke to tie, is being put on cross ties which is even more inhibiting than a straight tie, and is having his feet taken away from him for lengthy periods of time. It’s a recipe for poor manners because you’re putting him in a situation where he is literally trapped and you haven’t provided him the tools to know how to deal with it.

This horse needs more handling, period. Get him really halter broke and you won’t have issues with the farrier because it isn’t really about the farrier, it’s about how broke he really is to handle.

[DQ_Foxhunter]

You have gotten some good suggestions here,so I just will address the mouthiness, I don’t know how to link videos but go to you tube and look up a Warwick Schiller video on mouthy horses,he uses his wife’s palomino Reiner in this video, it is excellent and I think it might help you with understanding your horse.

[BlueDrifter]

@Abbie.S you are making me think, but he sure doesn’t appear anxious! However, I do get the feeling he is used to more structure - like a cowboy – instead of me. So there might be a link there. Also, I didn’t mean pulling back against being tied, which I understand is true panic at the time. I was referring to how he leans in to nip, but quickly jerks back anticipating a swat – THAT seems like a gelding game.

@DQ Foxhunter, Well those videos were helpful. I even have a subscription to Warwick Schiller, didn’t think to look there.

So where others say I don’t discipline him enough for mouthiness, Warwick says “don’t discipline, engage” And he does it differently from John Lyons or Parelli, who would say to rub his muzzle hard so he will avoid you, but instead rub it softly until your horse is done wanting to engage. His description of that palamino fits my guy to a tee.

A subsequent video has Warwick saying it isn’t an XXX problem, it is a groundwork/handling problem, echoing @Abbie.S – so I guess I have my work cut out for me.

Today he was clearly more headshy and quick to react than normal – that is what throws me, more discipline (from farrier yesterday) seems to be effective right then, but worse later. Everyone says he is very smart horse, and I can vouch that he doesn’t forget much and prepares to be even more stubborn about something he was punished for.