Human conformation vs strengths in riding (questions)

[netg]

I have a theory that overarched vs over hunched body types in riders make a big difference in how we ride. I know I have tendencies which I have to always work on, and I’m curious to see how it applies for others.

Questions (and please feel free to discuss beyond answering the questions, too):

Do you tend toward an overarched or hunched back shape naturally?

Have you always found a tendency to have sore abs, or have you had to work to learn to use your core more?

Do you find that riding the hind legs of a horse up under it is a strength or weakness? Do you have other notable strengths/weaknesses in your riding?

I will answer in the next post…

[netg]

Do you tend toward an overarched or hunched back shape naturally? Very arched - duck butt, former hunter, stiff and arched shape

Have you always found a tendency to have sore abs, or have you had to work to learn to use your core more? My abs ALWAYS hurt after riding. I have come to realize that it takes a lot of ab strength for me to move with my horse instead of against my horse because of my shape.

Do you find that riding the hind legs of a horse up under it is a strength or weakness? Do you have other notable strengths/weaknesses in your riding?
I specifically buy horses who step under themselves well because I’m not confident in my ability to improve that at ALL. What I do tend to do is get them folding the hind legs and sitting more behind. I’m also good at getting tense horses to relax, but this is more mental than physical - physically I tend more toward tension if I’m not careful, and the riders I envy for seeming ease are all more hunched in natural shape and are naturally soft and sympathetic without having to work so hard at it.

[fordtraktor]

I have a “green horse hunch” from riding so many young horses for decades. It’s a defensive position. I try to fix it because it is easy to get too far ahead/heavy on the forehand if your weight is too far forward. I still have to remind myself to relax my back sometimes too, it doesn’t mean you are always loosey-goosey and fluid.

I do think conformation can make riding easier. I have a short torso and very long legs. I’m also 5’10. This is undoubtedly an advantage – low center of gravity, lots of leg to wrap around horse and get stuff done. however – it’s a two-edged sword. I’ve been reassured by many excellent dressage and jumper trainers I have to be careful because when you are a taller person, everything you do influences the horse a lot. So you have to be very “correct” as your body type, while advantageous in many senses, amplifies every move you make. Your body control needs to be very good.

I am, however, quite soft I think. I believe softness comes from the mind and not conformation. Softness comes from slowing down your mind and not getting tense which is very much something mental. There are many soft smaller riders too (supershorty on the jumper forum comes to mind as a very short person with a lovely soft look to her riding).

Try just softening your mind, then going around and mentally softening each relevant body part (I particularly remind myself to soften my lower back while keeping a lengthened spine – and my arms – all of them, not just your elbows. an elastic feel comes all the way from the shoulder. I am sure there are many ways to envision softness but these are just some things that help me. Spend a little bit of your ride doing this routinely, and then repeat any time you sense a slight tension in your body.

[fordtraktor]

Also, forgot to mention – there are some very good books out there on the Alexander Technique. I find the teachings to be very useful when it comes to getting in the right frame of mind for riding – mindful, conscious use of your body to overcome ineffective muscle memory. Very helpful stuff easily applied to riding.

[Scribbler]

I think we need to distinguish between human conformation, and learned postures.

Arched or hunched backs are more in the category of learned position. You can in fact have both an arched small of the back and slump at the shoulders.

The ratio of leg to torso, and the length of the femur versus the lower leg (I almost said cannon bone :)) are fixed aspects of human conformation. So are arm length.

Weight is something that can change, and often does.

Other things that are more or less fixed are human conformation flaws such as inbalance in the pelvis, legs different lengths, and the width of the pelvis.

Other things that might not be truly fixed, but that most people lack the ability or diligence to change significantly, would be the flexibility of hip muscles.

Overall muscle flexibility is, I think, somewhat fixed. Some people just have looser muscles from childhood on, than others.

I’d say that the best riders I’ve seen tend to have relatively long legs compared to their torso, to be slim, and to have good upright posture and a good sense of where their bodies are in space. And not to have any actual body balance problems, like uneven hips or scoliosis. In other words, good athletic bodies, and also good at other sports that require speed and balance.

I think body proportion is probably more important than overall height or weight.

[tbchick84]

I’m a serious hunch back. I’ve walked around with rounded shoulders forever. I have no doubt that it throws my horse onto his forehand. The more effort I make to “open my cabinet” and engage my core, the more my horse is able to use himself better.

I have had low muscle tone my entire life, so I’m never riding from a standpoint of strength. I think there is tons to be said for proper balance, position and use of aids over just sheer muscle.

[StormyDay]

Years of hunters has given me the perment butt out shoulder back position- even on the ground! I have a short upper body, but normal overall leg length with a really long thigh. This makes buying dressage saddles a total pain!

I almost never have sore abs… But I do get sore legs, shoulders, and sides. Is this something that should happen to me? Now I am worried maybe I am doing it wrong

I have gotten better at getting horses to collect from behind over the past few years. I was lucky that my first horse I did dressage with has a really strong engine, and you almost need no leg to get him to use himself properly. My other ones…not so much!

[Scribbler]

I do believe that if you are riding a given horse consistently, let’s say 5 or 6 days a week, for a similar amount of time and intensity, you should not be coming home sore from your rides. Let’s say you are schooling an hour a day 5 or 6 days a week, at a steady or slowly increasing level of intensity. Your body should adapt, you should get fitter.

Now if you shake that up a bit, you might be more tired, and more sore. If you went on a 5 hour trail ride, if you took an intense lesson or a clinic with a coach that pushed you past your usual level of effort or comfort, if you did a longe lesson with no stirrups, if you rode out a big spook or buck that pulled some muscles, if your rode multiple horses in one day when you usually ride one, or if you rode a different horse with a much bigger gait: these would all be reasons that you rightly should be a bit more tired, a bit more sore.

Likewise, if you ride 3 days or less per week, it’s possible that you are just not developing the fitness and muscle strength needed.

But IMO, if you are riding the same horse daily, long term, at a consistent workload, you should not be sore after every ride. If you are, there is something that needs to be fixed or tweaked. Is the saddle fit wrong for you? Do you need work on your seat? Is the horse hanging so heavily on your hands that you have to brace your arms and thighs to stay in the saddle?

I also think we equestrians tend to miss the component of rider fitness. And for good reason, since if you are riding every day and basically spending all your energy at the barn, there really is no slot left for a fitness program. But also a lot of ammie riders are not particularly athletic (the pros are), and haven’t ever had particularly good fitness, especially adult ammies.

[emipou]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8857492]

I do think conformation can make riding easier. I have a short torso and very long legs. I’m also 5’10. This is undoubtedly an advantage – low center of gravity, lots of leg to wrap around horse and get stuff done. however – it’s a two-edged sword. I’ve been reassured by many excellent dressage and jumper trainers I have to be careful because when you are a taller person, everything you do influences the horse a lot. So you have to be very “correct” as your body type, while advantageous in many senses, amplifies every move you make. Your body control needs to be very good.[/QUOTE]

Yes. I have been saying this for some time now. I think my height definitely has a tendency of overamplifying every little issue. I really have put a large effort in having a correct and balanced seat but I strongly feel like being off just a little makes a bigger difference than with a much shorter rider.

I am jealous of short riders with their quieter legs.

I also have a really hard time with keeping my legs long on my mare because she has a smaller barrel. I float between stirrup lengths all the time.

To answer OP question…
Undoubtedly. I think about this kind of stuff all the time. Dressage and seeking correctness sure has given me a lot of body awareness.
I tend to hunch. I think this is a side effect that a lot of taller females get… Trying to shrink down more maybe (not that I don’t enjoy being tall)? but I think my general posture has improved tremendously since returning to riding.

Also, back to the tall thing… Just like mare with her long neck and body, my height makes me look really goofy but when I get it together, I actually look pretty good.

[StormyDay]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8857776]
I do believe that if you are riding a given horse consistently, let’s say 5 or 6 days a week, for a similar amount of time and intensity, you should not be coming home sore from your rides. Let’s say you are schooling an hour a day 5 or 6 days a week, at a steady or slowly increasing level of intensity. Your body should adapt, you should get fitter.

Now if you shake that up a bit, you might be more tired, and more sore. If you went on a 5 hour trail ride, if you took an intense lesson or a clinic with a coach that pushed you past your usual level of effort or comfort, if you did a longe lesson with no stirrups, if you rode out a big spook or buck that pulled some muscles, if your rode multiple horses in one day when you usually ride one, or if you rode a different horse with a much bigger gait: these would all be reasons that you rightly should be a bit more tired, a bit more sore.

Likewise, if you ride 3 days or less per week, it’s possible that you are just not developing the fitness and muscle strength needed.

But IMO, if you are riding the same horse daily, long term, at a consistent workload, you should not be sore after every ride. If you are, there is something that needs to be fixed or tweaked. Is the saddle fit wrong for you? Do you need work on your seat? Is the horse hanging so heavily on your hands that you have to brace your arms and thighs to stay in the saddle?

I also think we equestrians tend to miss the component of rider fitness. And for good reason, since if you are riding every day and basically spending all your energy at the barn, there really is no slot left for a fitness program. But also a lot of ammie riders are not particularly athletic (the pros are), and haven’t ever had particularly good fitness, especially adult ammies.[/QUOTE]

That is what I thought too. I only get sore after a really tough lesson (jumping with no stirrups, or that time I had to two point the whole lesson) I thought maybe I was just that one strange person who doesn’t get sore every time?? Glad to know I am not a freak in that department!

[Foxtail]

I tend to hunch, but only in the canter. It’s a holdover from when I was eventing on hot horses with much more frequency.

I never had ab pain; for the longest time I would only get pain in my hip adductors. However, I’m not sure how much of that pain was improper technique, and how much of that was due to a combination of saddles, horses, and my own conformation. Now? Pick a joint in my lower body and it probably hurts when I ride. Not much I can do about that though.

[JLR1]

OP I have to credit the clinic we rode in with Heather Blitz for helping me understand why posture and rider biomechanics are the key! I too have an arched spine. Heather pointed out that my horse was a reflection of my posture…hollow back and lack of hind end engagement. Sure enough, maintaining a more neutral spine has helped tremendously with getting my horse to engage and collect. Its by no means automatic yet, if I don’t consciously think about my posture I revert to duck butt. I rode with another biomechanics expert Shannon Peters and when she first saw me she said I have a “cheaters body” or one that is naturally built for riding…5’5" short torso, long legs and arms. I guess I never really thought about it, but I can see why having a short torso, and long legs makes it easier to stay centered and plugged in. I run, cycle, work on core etc. and ride my horse 5 days a week so I don’t really get tired or sore. I’m the first one to admit that being built for riding is helpful but doesn’t equate to the most important quality and that’s effectiveness as a rider. That is something that will always be a daily challenge for me.

[Cat_Tap]

I am always told to get my shoulders back and down. In order to do this I get rigid. I have concluded that this is how I am built and that 35 years of bending over and mucking stalls have developed muscles at the top of my back between my shoulders making me look hunched. I had a friend who wasn’t a great rider but she always had beautiful posture on or off the horse and didn’t have to work at it.

[MysticOakRanch]

I think there is far more to it then just torso and leg length, but I DO think that is part of it. I laughingly call myself a Quarterhorse. I have a REALLY long femur, and a relatively short arm - I would most definitely be very downhill if I was a horse. Then my back - I am an arched back by nature (and training) - actually a spinal curvature, then add to that I grew up riding hunters. Someone said they hunch because they rode a lot of young horses - I’m the opposite, I also rode a lot of young horses, but that just made me soft in the hands and arms, but still an arch.

So - I spend a lot of time working on my “hunch” - that gets my center of gravity down, my core engaged, and less pushing the horse out and down. I have a short body, so I can’t say it makes for a pretty picture, but it has made me a more effective rider.

I find that the really LONG femur makes me more subject to longitudinal balance sensitivity - I really feel when a saddle is not balanced for me. I can NOT ride in a French style forward balance saddle for example. I think the long femur makes a pivot point out of the knee - have actually had that conversation with some biomechanics people who agree - the long leg is a benefit in some ways, but not all ways.

I am also a narrow person, and NOT naturally a “loose” person. So I do focus on stretching exercises to keep my hips and shoulders and legs looser. That has helped my riding and my everyday life. From what I see, the wider hipped female rider actually has an advantage in this area. Dressage riders need to be “bottom heavy”, not “top heavy”, and this is one of those sports where you see the “well endowed booties” with an advantage. Unfortunately for me, I’m well endowed above and slim below - not the perfect rider’s body by a long ways (in spite of the long legs).

I have spent years struggling with where to put my arms - and just recently had a real eye opener - I need to ride with a slightly straighter arm then is ideal IF I want to keep my hands “forward” and not too high - years of fighting to keep my elbows at my side, my hands forward, and lower - and it just doesn’t work - well, that is my arm length fighting against the “standard” - yes, I am a QH! A slightly straighter arm, and things get much better.

We all need to work with what we have and learn to use our strengths and strengthen our weaknesses. That usually means some level of fitness training OFF the horse. So I disagree a bit with the poster who said you should be fit enough if you ride 5 days a week. While I DO agree you shouldn’t be sore, the only way to build fitness is with cross training of some kind. And that includes core work, and for those of us who are not so flexible, it includes stretching work. You will NOT become fit enough for upper level dressage by simply riding.

I do find this a very interesting topic - have had some of these conversations locally. We have a few biomechanics people in this area - people who regularly train with Mary Wanless, people who are USDF certified instructors, etc - so they do have valid credentials. And the topic fascinates me - how to work with my body issues, and my horses’ body issues! Thank you for starting the conversation:)

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8858361]
I think there is far more to it then just torso and leg length, but I DO think that is part of it. I laughingly call myself a Quarterhorse. I have a REALLY long femur, and a relatively short arm - I would most definitely be very downhill if I was a horse. Then my back - I am an arched back by nature (and training) - actually a spinal curvature, then add to that I grew up riding hunters. Someone said they hunch because they rode a lot of young horses - I’m the opposite, I also rode a lot of young horses, but that just made me soft in the hands and arms, but still an arch.

So - I spend a lot of time working on my “hunch” - that gets my center of gravity down, my core engaged, and less pushing the horse out and down. I have a short body, so I can’t say it makes for a pretty picture, but it has made me a more effective rider.

I find that the really LONG femur makes me more subject to longitudinal balance sensitivity - I really feel when a saddle is not balanced for me. I can NOT ride in a French style forward balance saddle for example. I think the long femur makes a pivot point out of the knee - have actually had that conversation with some biomechanics people who agree - the long leg is a benefit in some ways, but not all ways.

I am also a narrow person, and NOT naturally a “loose” person. So I do focus on stretching exercises to keep my hips and shoulders and legs looser. That has helped my riding and my everyday life. From what I see, the wider hipped female rider actually has an advantage in this area. Dressage riders need to be “bottom heavy”, not “top heavy”, and this is one of those sports where you see the “well endowed booties” with an advantage. Unfortunately for me, I’m well endowed above and slim below - not the perfect rider’s body by a long ways (in spite of the long legs).

I have spent years struggling with where to put my arms - and just recently had a real eye opener - I need to ride with a slightly straighter arm then is ideal IF I want to keep my hands “forward” and not too high - years of fighting to keep my elbows at my side, my hands forward, and lower - and it just doesn’t work - well, that is my arm length fighting against the “standard” - yes, I am a QH! A slightly straighter arm, and things get much better.

We all need to work with what we have and learn to use our strengths and strengthen our weaknesses. That usually means some level of fitness training OFF the horse. So I disagree a bit with the poster who said you should be fit enough if you ride 5 days a week. While I DO agree you shouldn’t be sore, the only way to build fitness is with cross training of some kind. And that includes core work, and for those of us who are not so flexible, it includes stretching work. You will NOT become fit enough for upper level dressage by simply riding.

I do find this a very interesting topic - have had some of these conversations locally. We have a few biomechanics people in this area - people who regularly train with Mary Wanless, people who are USDF certified instructors, etc - so they do have valid credentials. And the topic fascinates me - how to work with my body issues, and my horses’ body issues! Thank you for starting the conversation:)[/QUOTE]

What I said in my post was that you shouldn’t be sore if you ride the same amount 5 days a week, unless something is wrong with how you’re riding, or you increase your level of effort (or you have arthritis or old injuries acting up). But I also agree with you that exercise off the horse is more important than we think, yet something many of us let slide. Pros are so busy dawn to dusk that they don’t have time or energy for the gym, and many ammies have riding as their only recreational activity, or else aren’t very athletic or fit people to begin with.

It is in fact amazing what targeted exercise can do in a relatively short time, for instance pilates or yoga for sorting out posture and abs. Hunched backs are about contracted chest and weak ab muscles as much as they are about the back, and you can’t fix them if you only think about them while riding. You need to work on them off the horse, and maybe throughout the whole day, keep checking posture to learn to stay straight.

[Pocket_Pony]

I tend to be somewhere between the hunch and the arched back. In my non-riding life, I’ve been told by ballet and pilates teachers that I need to tuck my butt more because it tends to stick out. But if you saw me from the side I don’t think you’d think that because I don’t have a big butt! And just the other day in a jumping lesson I was told to arch my back more!?

I think I tend to have soft, neutral shoulders - I probably tend a little more toward a hunch, but to actively bring them back I think creates tension where I want softness so . . .

With regard to flexibility, I think a lot of people confuse lack of of flexibility with lack of ability due to bone conformation. For example, in ballet. My teacher tried to tell me if I practiced more, I’d someday be able to do the splits. Um, not so. My bones are what they are and more than muscle they dictate how far my body can go in a certain posture. If my hip sockets allow for only so much range of movement, nothing is going to allow that bone to go farther.

Yes, work on flexibility; but also realize that everybody’s skeletons are put together differently and what comes easily for one person may never be possible for another.

I feel like I have short arms, but when I’ve looked at mine compared to other people’s (again, in ballet where we were of course not covered in layers of clothing), they looked longer. I do have a long femur and short calves. So I get the comment that my legs look long, but they are not - it is all thigh. I have some sort of funky thing going on with my back and hips - “functional scoliosis” I was told - that makes me only feel even when my left stirrup is longer than my right. When I try to ride with them even, I am in great pain.

I am interested in biomechanics, but haven’t really come across any trainers who teach that way. What I do hate, though, is when someone doesn’t understand people’s conformation and therefore tries to put the rider (me) in a cookie-cutter position when it really isn’t good for my body.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8858456]

With regard to flexibility, I think a lot of people confuse lack of of flexibility with lack of ability due to bone conformation. For example, in ballet. My teacher tried to tell me if I practiced more, I’d someday be able to do the splits. Um, not so. My bones are what they are and more than muscle they dictate how far my body can go in a certain posture. If my hip sockets allow for only so much range of movement, nothing is going to allow that bone to go farther.

Yes, work on flexibility; but also realize that everybody’s skeletons are put together differently and what comes easily for one person may never be possible for another.
y.[/QUOTE]

ABSOLUTELY! It is all about joints, sockets, as well as tendons and ligaments. And you are right - I will NEVER do the splits either. And I do flexibility exercises with religious conviction:D Which is why it is so important to know our strong and weak points, and learn how to support and play on them.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8858456]
I tend to be somewhere between the hunch and the arched back. In my non-riding life, I’ve been told by ballet and pilates teachers that I need to tuck my butt more because it tends to stick out. But if you saw me from the side I don’t think you’d think that because I don’t have a big butt! And just the other day in a jumping lesson I was told to arch my back more!?

I think I tend to have soft, neutral shoulders - I probably tend a little more toward a hunch, but to actively bring them back I think creates tension where I want softness so . . .

With regard to flexibility, I think a lot of people confuse lack of of flexibility with lack of ability due to bone conformation. For example, in ballet. My teacher tried to tell me if I practiced more, I’d someday be able to do the splits. Um, not so. My bones are what they are and more than muscle they dictate how far my body can go in a certain posture. If my hip sockets allow for only so much range of movement, nothing is going to allow that bone to go farther.

Yes, work on flexibility; but also realize that everybody’s skeletons are put together differently and what comes easily for one person may never be possible for another.

I feel like I have short arms, but when I’ve looked at mine compared to other people’s (again, in ballet where we were of course not covered in layers of clothing), they looked longer. I do have a long femur and short calves. So I get the comment that my legs look long, but they are not - it is all thigh. I have some sort of funky thing going on with my back and hips - “functional scoliosis” I was told - that makes me only feel even when my left stirrup is longer than my right. When I try to ride with them even, I am in great pain.

I am interested in biomechanics, but haven’t really come across any trainers who teach that way. What I do hate, though, is when someone doesn’t understand people’s conformation and therefore tries to put the rider (me) in a cookie-cutter position when it really isn’t good for my body.[/QUOTE]

That’s an excellent point about muscle flexibility versus skeleton mobility or potential. Unfortunately very few fitness instructors have the training to understand this; I’ve never had anyone mention this to me; and yet it makes total sense, and is something that I think about all the time in relation to horses.

As far as functional scoliosis, a good friend of mine has had this lifelong, but only diagnosed within the past year or so. The basic imbalance this causes has had a profound influence on her position, including tipping forward, heels sliding up and back, etc. She’s going to an RMT, doing lots of fitness off the horse, but I don’t know to what extent she can modify this basic body imbalance.

[Twigster]

@netg;8857468

Questions (and please feel free to discuss beyond answering the questions, too):

Do you tend toward an overarched or hunched back shape naturally? I tend toward hunched.

Have you always found a tendency to have sore abs, or have you had to work to learn to use your core more? Neither? I have a strong core, and find it relatively easy to engage when I need it and follow when I don’t.

Do you find that riding the hind legs of a horse up under it is a strength or weakness? Do you have other notable strengths/weaknesses in your riding?
[B]A weakness for me, I have the tendency to hunch and tip forward due to my own conformation, and thus tip the horse onto the forehand. Maintaining awareness of the hind end and consistenly riding the hind legs under is something I have to work on every. single. step.

See bolded answers above for part of my answers. I have the absolute reverse of a riders body. Small hips, short legs, short in general, but long torso for my size and generously endowed in the chest. Tipping forward is mu nemesis and my “neutral” that I always seem to want to go back to is a bit of a rounded back. When I am truly straight through the back according to upper level instructors and clinicians I feel like I am slightly arching.

Some of the forward tipping and rounded posture comes from a lot of defensive riding on horses that were green or needing rehab, and one thing I can do well is follow. I do carry some physical tension in my shoulders and upper back, but generally can give a very mentally relaxing and sympathetic ride to steady a horse.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

[QUOTE=JLR1;8857897]
OP I have to credit the clinic we rode in with Heather Blitz for helping me understand why posture and rider biomechanics are the key! I too have an arched spine. Heather pointed out that my horse was a reflection of my posture…hollow back and lack of hind end engagement. Sure enough, maintaining a more neutral spine has helped tremendously with getting my horse to engage and collect. Its by no means automatic yet, if I don’t consciously think about my posture I revert to duck butt. I rode with another biomechanics expert Shannon Peters and when she first saw me she said I have a “cheaters body” or one that is naturally built for riding…5’5" short torso, long legs and arms. I guess I never really thought about it, but I can see why having a short torso, and long legs makes it easier to stay centered and plugged in. I run, cycle, work on core etc. and ride my horse 5 days a week so I don’t really get tired or sore. I’m the first one to admit that being built for riding is helpful but doesn’t equate to the most important quality and that’s effectiveness as a rider. That is something that will always be a daily challenge for me.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!

You know me - long everywhere and that can be an advantage but only once I know how to use my different parts and can hold it together.

One thing I love about riding with Heather is her applicability to individual riders/bodies. She is the first person I’ve ridden with whose body is very comparable to mine.

I was so hell bent on the queen’s posture, straight up, boobs up, chin up, etc. Heather really helps me do what is more natural…yes, it’s a pretty picture but it was entirely ineffective. She’s taught me to get into the saddle and yes, even hunch a tiny bit (the thought of hunching for me…doesn’t look hunching in videos or photos ) for a greater feeling of stability and less fear.

For netg…I don’t duck butt so much and used to do the fear hunch, then went totally straight up, now I think I’m in more of a neutral, effective position.

I credit biomechanics sessions with several clinicians AND my own trainer in helping me.

My longs are just too long for my horse in a perfect world but it’s fine. I just have to use my calves (ideal anyway).

I’m loving every moment of my riding right now. It seems like everything has come together and I couldn’t be happier. Finally I’ve started working WITH my body instead of trying to find ways to combat it.

Nice topic, OP!

ETA: answers:

not usually sore abs, but sometimes. Not sure if I can get horse under me - when I ride better, the photos and videos look like he’s under me better ;).

tend toward hunch but this is now a good thing in my mind.