Hunter Myths - Spin-off of the Left Sided Mane - UPDATE: ARTICLE IS OUT!

[BigMama1]

@Daventry

I am playing devil’s advocate here. There is also zero reason to braid on the right other than the whispers around the circuit that manes should be braided on the right. There is no rule that states braids must be on the right. Matter of fact, there is no rule in the USEF rulebook that states a hunter has to be braided at all. (this rule, of course, doesn’t apply if the prize list states horses must be braided)

It also makes zero difference to how the overall picture looks. I honestly didn’t even know that “you must braid on the right” was even a thing until I read this thread :lol: Can someone enlighten me how / why this particular tradition began?

[BigMama1]

@snaffle635

Pics from winners at WEF last week…

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/fath-magness-and-hoch-close-out-wchr-week-with-wins?fbclid=IwAR1juGjc3o24gVeLy6yA18ebhN9CEgRdlLDY_y_56Oth3tRV7xKJfHTS8mo

2 horses without martingales
2 horses in pelhams
1 horse with a blue eye
horses with leather girths, nylon girths, and fuzzy girths
can’t tell if Akinda’s wearing a half pad or if her pad slipped back
a kid wearing white breeches with a shad
someone with a saddle so dark, it could be back

Yes, there’s a general conformity in appearance, especially since all the riders are wearing dark, solid color coats and shads. But if you look closely at the details, there are differences.

Lovely horses and interesting to note the small differences in turnout. But the biggest thing that struck me - as someone who hasn’t been anywhere near a hunter ring since the 80s - is how much the style of riding has changed. Does George Morris get the vapours when he watches these classes?

[ladyj79]

@BigMama1

Lovely horses and interesting to note the small differences in turnout. But the biggest thing that struck me - as someone who hasn’t been anywhere near a hunter ring since the 80s - is how much the style of riding has changed. Does George Morris get the vapours when he watches these classes?

No, because he trains and has trained a lot of these people or their trainers and buys horses for tori colvin.

George loves winners.

[Daventry]

@BigMama1

It also makes zero difference to how the overall picture looks. I honestly didn’t even know that “you must braid on the right” was even a thing until I read this thread :lol: Can someone enlighten me how / why this particular tradition began?

Interestingly enough, it is the same reason why we traditionally also mount on the left. Soldiers carried their swords and scabbards (sheaths) on the left. They mounted on the left so that the sword would not get in the way while mounting. Manes were traditionally laid on the right so as not to interfere with the sword being drawn or put away. Last time I checked, show hunters do not carry swords while on course.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@Daventry

Last time I checked, show hunters do not carry swords while on course.

I’d kind of like to in schooling- just sayin…

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

@NoSuchPerson

I disagree that “hostile attitudes towards pelhams have plenty of justification.”

You can’t just make a blanket statement that pelhams are harsher bits than snaffles. Unless you actually look inside the horse’s mouth, you have no idea what that snaffle’s mouthpiece is, and the harshness of that snaffle bit is strongly dependent on the nature of the mouthpiece.

Penalizing any horse wearing a pelham on the grounds that it’s a stronger bit than all of the snaffles being worn by other horses makes no sense unless you know exactly what kind of snaffle those horses are wearing. I’m not sure I would buy the argument that a short shank pelham with a rubber mouthpiece and a properly adjusted curb chain is a harsher bit than, e.g., a double twisted wire snaffle.

I also think that it’s unfair to assume that the only reason someone would use a pelham is because they need better brakes. People don’t use curb bits just to get better brakes. They use them to get specific responses that are better elicited using a leverage bit than a snaffle.

Note that I’m not saying that people don’t get penalized for using a pelham. Depending on the judge, that may well be the case. What I’m saying is that assumptions that all pelhams are harsher than any snaffle aren’t based on reality.

I never said that all pelhams are worse than all snaffles. I am well aware that there are some heinous mouthpieces that can be put on snaffles. And that is why the hunter ring could benefit from a clearly defined list of legal bits and mouthpieces, and ring stewards that check equipment.

But since all we have to go on given the current state of things is the cheek piece, a shanked bit says more than a snaffle ring.

[kashmere]

Caveat - I do not ride hunters. Currently, I don’t even ride jumpers and just play in the dressage sandbox. BUT - twice recently I have watched people ride in new saddles, so I’ve actually been looking at and scrutinizing the saddle aspect of the ride, only to have the person dismount and walk over and noticed “hey, your saddle is brown! lovely!” Point being - obviously a black saddle is not a light brown saddle, but from a distance, the very dark/chocolate/etc. coloured saddles (and even a slightly lighter brown but older and nicely broken in and oiled saddle) are not necessarily highly distinguishable from a distance.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@enjoytheride

Your saddle must have a square cantle. I had a European made jumping saddle (not an AP) with a round cantle and got that comment from several people.

If the judge spends the entire time from her elevated booth trying to figure out what shape my cantle is maybe she’ll miss my 6 lead changes down the line. LOL classic :lol:

The round cantles tend to have a deeper seat so not “standard” but def exist (not just European). If I saw a flatter seat, round cantle I’d prob comment in a positive and inquire about the maker. But not snotty (hopefully)- generally inquisitive.

[RugBug]

@kashmere

Caveat - I do not ride hunters. Currently, I don’t even ride jumpers and just play in the dressage sandbox. BUT - twice recently I have watched people ride in new saddles, so I’ve actually been looking at and scrutinizing the saddle aspect of the ride, only to have the person dismount and walk over and noticed “hey, your saddle is brown! lovely!” Point being - obviously a black saddle is not a light brown saddle, but from a distance, the very dark/chocolate/etc. coloured saddles (and even a slightly lighter brown but older and nicely broken in and oiled saddle) are not necessarily highly distinguishable from a distance.

I don’t actually find that to be true. IMO, there is a difference between a very dark havana saddle that is almost black and an actual black saddle. Whatever process they use to make a saddle black, makes it look different, IMO.

This is a true black Black Country close contact. There is no mistaking it for a havana saddle.

This is a havana saddle. It’s very dark and would never be confused for black.

This bridle is havana - very dark…and yet I still don’t think it would be confused for black. It is the same bridle that is on the dark bay horse…

And just because I love to point out my mediocre-ness (Thanks @TheMoo), This is another very dark havana saddle, eggbutt bit, I think the cavesson was a drop that we pulled up, and the braids are ATROCIOUS…but on the right. . Not to mention that color combo of the clothes…it was all my 16 yr old self could afford including the saddle that was a terrible fit for me. My ability to turn out a horse (and to buy the colors I want to wear) has improved a lot since then…although even though we all had to learn to braid back then, I refuse to do it now. I did it once as an adult and it was better but still not up to snuff…and it hurt like heck, so I will pay, thank you very much.

As far as trend go, out here on the west coast, we are seeing a lot more full cheeks being used, a lot less martingales and a half pads or shaped pads and fleece, neoprene, or leather girths. All sorts of stuff on the horse.

We don’t, sadly, see too much variation between a black or navy coat, white shirt and tan breeches. So boring.

All horses are braided on the right. Well, I’ve never seen one in the hunters braided to the left.

[RugBug]

@Pennywell Bay

The round cantles tend to have a deeper seat so not “standard” but def exist (not just European). If I saw a flatter seat, round cantle I’d prob comment in a positive and inquire about the maker. But not snotty (hopefully)- generally inquisitive.

County saddles all have round cantles. I don’t like the look, but I fully recognize it’s just my preference.

[lesson_junkie]

@Daventry

Interestingly enough, it is the same reason why we traditionally also mount on the left. Soldiers carried their swords and scabbards (sheaths) on the left. They mounted on the left so that the sword would not get in the way while mounting. Manes were traditionally laid on the right so as not to interfere with the sword being drawn or put away. Last time I checked, show hunters do not carry swords while on course.

Maybe not swords these days, but flasks, you bet!

[kashmere]

@RugBug - totally agree with you! In those pics they would never be mistaken, and referring to my anecdotes, as soon as the horse was up close/rider dismounted I could see the light But - from far away, in motion, with a rider’s seat/leg covering the majority of the saddle, I’d say that this saddle:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0913/9560/products/BTiun0hEQliFJKKxqibwoA_thumb_f070_1024x1024.jpg?v=1518046658

and this one:

https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/iiwAAOSwWz5cOiFI/s-l225.jpg

aren’t going to be immediately stunningly obviously different.

The older saddles often had an underside/panel that was a different colour - like in one of your photos, the dark havana saddle has an almost yellow panel (I had one like that too, and loved it!) but that doesn’t seem to be a thing so much anymore.

Anyway, this is a very small, insignificant and kind of silly point :lol: and maybe it’s just me being colourblind!

[Midge]

@RugBug

All horses are braided on the left. Well, I’ve never seen one in the hunters braided to the right.

You mean the opposite, I think.

[PNWjumper]

@NoSuchPerson

You can’t just make a blanket statement that pelhams are harsher bits than snaffles. Unless you actually look inside the horse’s mouth, you have no idea what that snaffle’s mouthpiece is, and the harshness of that snaffle bit is strongly dependent on the nature of the mouthpiece

I agree with this sentiment and will say two things about it.

1. Given the preponderance of bits like d-ring segundas, it is a ridiculous assumption to assume that a pelham is a stronger bit than the d-ring on another horse. But to that point, there are a hundred ways to bit a horse from super mild to ridiculously harsh that still have a d-ring cheek piece. So if you want to fit in appearance-wise, you’re best off picking one of the myriad of D-ring options. And someone who’s experienced and knowledgeable about bits can easily do that. When I started working on medal/eq courses with my young hunter last year, I threw him in a soft pelham to “look the part.” It was ridiculous, but completed the picture of the eq horse. But when we walked into the hunter ring it was always in a D-ring.

2. The judge is looking for the horse that makes it around the course the most effortlessly and with the least [apparent] rider influence. So IMO it is fair to pick the horse that is in the least amount of “gear” (in this case, since most hunter gear is uniform from horse to horse, I mean the bit). So even though I think that a rubber mullen mouth pelham is 1/10th the amount of bit as a D-ring segunda, it still looks like a lot more. I’ve often thought that it would be interesting (though likely not feasible) to incorporate a bit check into hunter rounds.

And @doublesstable - yes! I hear that one so often!

[Victorious]

Rugbug-I love that last picture! OMG-that’s pretty much me, only with a bay tb!. I, too did my own crappy braids-yours are on the right-side in that picture, btw. I even wore off the shelf too short boots for way too long. But what fun! I remember being so excited to get a new helmet with the clear harness, such a fashion statement. Those were fun times and I remember there was definitely tradition, but I also remember a lot more acceptance of variables-in horses and fashion.

[RugBug]

@Midge

You mean the opposite, I think.

Hahahaha…yes, you’re right.

[BigMama1]

@Daventry

Interestingly enough, it is the same reason why we traditionally also mount on the left. Soldiers carried their swords and scabbards (sheaths) on the left. They mounted on the left so that the sword would not get in the way while mounting. Manes were traditionally laid on the right so as not to interfere with the sword being drawn or put away. Last time I checked, show hunters do not carry swords while on course.

Thanks! I wondered if that was the idea.

[greysfordays]

I kind of think the minutia about turnout is much more about how a rider feels in the schooling ring and the in-gate than what the judge is looking for. The judge wants 8 beautiful jumps, a lovely and healthy horse and some coordinated lead changes. That you’re in a Jimmy’s bridle with the older diamond stitching is nice and all, but it’s not going to forgive any mistakes in the ring.

I did the hunters for 4 years here in CA on the AA circuits and found the whole atmosphere in the warm ups and by the in-gate kind of intimidating, especially when I started doing the AOs. The BNT’s totally undress you and your horse’s turnout. So for me, getting the “right” tack was like putting on armor. I felt it made my horse look beautiful and it made me feel more confident. Plus it was fun learning about the craftsmanship that goes into good tack. No one was harmed in my shallow endeavors, save my pocket book.

But look, just bc I got really into the details of turnout doesn’t mean I couldn’t tell you why my horse was in a certain type of bit or why we schooled in something different at home or any other horse care related question. I stayed engaged and involved in all of it.

And I never EVER imagined that I had to get a wide noseband bridle to replace the narrower one, or the judge would notice my horse’s suitcase head. No judge could miss that head :lol:. But they also noticed he was a beautiful mover and lofty jumper and when I got my ish together to find the jumps, we were rewarded.

As for the pelham, honestly, I think in a flat class, it should be taken into consideration. In a jumping class, there is so much more data (found all the jumps, lead changes, the form over the jumps, the movement across the ground) than in in a flat class, plus you have all the horses with each other to make direct comparisons. That the horse has a pelham sort of fades away in a beautiful jumping round, which is why I think you see them in derby’s fairly often. In a flat class, it’s harder to get that beautiful stretch over the back picture you can get in a snaffle. You can, but the picture isn’t quite the same, and most times I’ve seen a horse flat in a pelham, the neck is more contracted and you get more of an impression of tension. These are sweeping generalizations I know, but I don’t think it’s unforgivable to note it as a judge in a flat class.

And really, for all the folks crowing about how unfair and political and shabby the hunter ring is, just don’t show in it. There’s no need to shame folks who love that ring, as long as they’re taking care of their horses, I don’t see why we need to make anyone feel bad about the thing they love.

[doublesstable]

@greysfordays

<snip> As for the pelham, honestly, I think in a flat class, it should be taken into consideration. In a jumping class, there is so much more data (found all the jumps, lead changes, the form over the jumps, the movement across the ground) than in in a flat class, plus you have all the horses with each other to make direct comparisons. That the horse has a pelham sort of fades away in a beautiful jumping round, which is why I think you see them in derby’s fairly often. In a flat class, it’s harder to get that beautiful stretch over the back picture you can get in a snaffle. You can, but the picture isn’t quite the same, and most times I’ve seen a horse flat in a pelham, the neck is more contracted and you get more of an impression of tension. These are sweeping generalizations I know, but I don’t think it’s unforgivable to note it as a judge in a flat class.

^This!

[eclipse]

I jump my horse in a rubber Pelham because he’s big and strong, I’m not…in a Pelham, I can keep that lovely hunter pace , light hands and a nice jump and it’s all good…and if it goes South, the Pelham is there for me to use and say “no jackaf$…you don’t get to run away now” lol i I’m now not placing anyway, and those brakes are now needed and appreciated hahahaha I’ve found that judges, in the over fences classes, are judging the way the horse jumps, pace, rhythm, correct leads, manners…the entire round, not so much the bit.

As above, the Pelham has not kept me out of placing over fences, and under saddle I’ll usually get a lower ribbon or not place…and that’s ok! We don’t paint as pretty a picture as a very light moving, lovely hunter hunter saddle in what looks like a simple snaffle . My guy does move well, but he’s powerful and big and I use the Pelham for a reason…big classes, I generally do the under saddles to get him used to cantering around in a large group not to place! Hopefully someday, I’ll be able to change him to a nice snaffle but right now nope!