Hunter Myths - Spin-off of the Left Sided Mane - UPDATE: ARTICLE IS OUT!

[Pennywell_Bay]

I would be surprised that this topic is now what- 3 threads. Maybe comprised of 85% of people “this is why I haattteeee hunters”. :rolleyes: and “why I don’t show in them”.

I really don’t see anyone, including myself, who actually shows or is on the circuit saying it will knock them out of the running or seriously hurt a score. My personal point was - why wouldn’t you just make and effort. Some people came back with reasons. Fine. I never said it was a dealbreaker for placings but it seems to be great traction for people who already don’t like the hunters. ( again- I made panties wad up on this board when I took a pony with a roached mane to an A show. Guess what- not a damn person cared and you couldn’t tell it was roached from where the judge sat- I have videos).

His mane also didn’t stop people (3) from inquiring whether or not he was for sale. Big name pony people.

This winter- we attempted to grow his mane out. He has a 4 inch crest and damn even as a once pro braider- I don’t think I am going to deal with it and may roach it the hell off again before we head back to WEC or KY . His performance speaks for itself. But I sure tried to be a bit more conventional.

[Midge]

@TheMoo

Is anyone else curious to see how the brown tack, must braid on the right, omg how dare you walk into a hunter ring like that folks ride? Honestly. We know @PNWjumper can ride the pants off of a lot of us. Meup is a beautiful rider, but most having a hissy… I wonder.

And @PNWjumper I bet green rider had more to do with it than anything else.

Here’s the thing. Since I have always been in the hunter ring, these things are ingrained in me. Not as things that are OMG going to cost me ribbons, but as how things are done. I am not going to look at others in a ‘how dare you’ mode, but as in, ‘did you get bad advice?’ mode. If you are going to kit yourself out for the hunter ring, are you going to work to the current standard, or are you going to thumb your nose ‘just because’? If, like the OP, you are going to stick a toe in the water from a different discipline, by all means, use what you have.

For example there is zero reason to braid your horse on the left side, so why take the judge’s eye away from what you want her to focus on?

[Midge]

@Pennywell Bay

This winter- we attempted to grow his mane out. He has a 4 inch crest and damn even as a once pro braider- I don’t think I am going to deal with it and may roach it the hell off again before we head back to WEC or KY . His performance speaks for itself. But I sure tried to be a bit more conventional.

I have a friend with a horse with the opposite problem. No hair. I’m always telling her to roach it.

[Victorious]

lol! Show hunters really are polarizing! Even in my own head-I can read both sides and be like…Yes! I totally agree with that! It’s a crazy, very specific sport. That’s just what it is. Don’t bring it down if you don’t like it, just don’t participate!NBD. There are plenty of other horsey ways to spend money, that’s for sure.

[Rackonteur]

I don’t know why they even call “the” hunters “hunters” these days. Most of them don’t hunt, and the jumps don’t look like anything you’d actually see out hunting. When I was doing hunt seat (called forward seat back then), hunters jumped real fences. Brush, brush oxers, stone walls, gates, Aiken fences, post-and-rails, coops. And in handy hunters the horse and rider had to prove themselves handy. Only the stone walls were fake, in the ring; on the outside course they were real.

Today they are basically doing show jumping, with different rules. Nothing wrong with that, except the name “hunters.”

[Backstage]

@Rackonteur

I don’t know why they even call “the” hunters “hunters” these days. Most of them don’t hunt, and the jumps don’t look like anything you’d actually see out hunting. When I was doing hunt seat (called forward seat back then), hunters jumped real fences. Brush, brush oxers, stone walls, gates, Aiken fences, post-and-rails, coops. And in handy hunters the horse and rider had to prove themselves handy. Only the stone walls were fake, in the ring; on the outside course they were real.

Today they are basically doing show jumping, with different rules. Nothing wrong with that, except the name “hunters.”

Does it really matter? The sport has evolved from its origins - as one might expect. Even if you don’t like the direction of that evolution, is there really a need to give it a whole new name on principle? Is it confusing anyone? I doubt anyone is showing up to a modern hunter show and shocked that the whole thing happens in a ring over a bunch of flower boxes.

Of all the complaints about the modern day hunters, this one is the most inane IMO. I’d much rather discuss just about anything else! And this is coming from someone who would love to see more derbies and specialty classes. I can get a bored of jumping the same fences/patterns at times (but also can’t seem to nail 8 distance consistently under those steady conditions…). But I see no reason to re-name the sport, or complain about the sorts of jumps. If you care, support shows that offer specialty classes with your time and/or money.

[enjoytheride]

Your saddle must have a square cantle. I had a European made jumping saddle (not an AP) with a round cantle and got that comment from several people.

If the judge spends the entire time from her elevated booth trying to figure out what shape my cantle is maybe she’ll miss my 6 lead changes down the line.

[Midge]

@Rackonteur

I don’t know why they even call “the” hunters “hunters” these days. Most of them don’t hunt, and the jumps don’t look like anything you’d actually see out hunting. When I was doing hunt seat (called forward seat back then), hunters jumped real fences. Brush, brush oxers, stone walls, gates, Aiken fences, post-and-rails, coops. And in handy hunters the horse and rider had to prove themselves handy. Only the stone walls were fake, in the ring; on the outside course they were real.

Today they are basically doing show jumping, with different rules. Nothing wrong with that, except the name “hunters.”

They are still judged on style, manners and way of going.

[Daventry]

@Midge

For example there is zero reason to braid your horse on the left side, so why take the judge’s eye away from what you want her to focus on?

I am playing devil’s advocate here. There is also zero reason to braid on the right other than the whispers around the circuit that manes should be braided on the right. There is no rule that states braids must be on the right. Matter of fact, there is no rule in the USEF rulebook that states a hunter has to be braided at all. (this rule, of course, doesn’t apply if the prize list states horses must be braided)

[PonyPenny]

@BigMama1

I have scribed at a LOT of dressage shows, and particularly at the lower levels have seen all combinations of tack and apparel, including horses and riders turned out for the hunter ring (sans martingale of course). As long as the horse and rider looked neat and tidy, I have only once heard a judge make any comment about tack or turnout and don’t believe the side of the mane you braid on, or whether your breeches are beige or white have any effect on dressage scores.

The one comment I did hear was when a rider with very busy hands that wagged the horse’s head from side to side constantly, opted to outfit said horse in a lurid lime green fly bonnet. The wagging head was the underlying issue but it was most definitely magnified by the fly veil and the judge mentioned it was an “unfortunate choice.”

So while many dressage riders may well choose certain pieces of tack or equipment because it’s what “everyone else” has, I think the difference is that nobody expects those choices to affect placings or scores.

I have scribed too and have heard different opinions on attire. A former instructor of mine did feel that once you got to a certain level, attire did matter. A judge may not make a note of it, but they do notice. All I know is that whether my horse does hunters or dressage, he is always braided on the right.

[Daventry]

@PonyPenny

A former instructor of mine did feel that once you got to a certain level, attire did matter.

This I have to agree on. In my opinion, there is an expectation of turnout depending on the level of show. What a judge will be OK with on the C circuit might become offensive on the AA circuit. One assumes that if you are stepping into the ring at Devon that you are already aware of the traditions of the sport. That being said, as a competitor and official myself, I still argue that some of the traditions, or what some consider traditions, are ridiculous and I’m not alone in my opinion.

[Midge]

@Daventry

I am playing devil’s advocate here. There is also zero reason to braid on the right other than the whispers around the circuit that manes should be braided on the right. There is no rule that states braids must be on the right. Matter of fact, there is no rule in the USEF rulebook that states a hunter has to be braided at all. (this rule, of course, doesn’t apply if the prize list states horses must be braided)

This is exactly my point. There are no ‘whispers around the circuit’. It’s just how it has always been done.

If you are going to kit yourself out for the hunter ring, are you going to work to the current standard, or are you going to thumb your nose ‘just because’?

[TheMoo]

@Midge

Here’s the thing. Since I have always been in the hunter ring, these things are ingrained in me. Not as things that are OMG going to cost me ribbons, but as how things are done. I am not going to look at others in a ‘how dare you’ mode, but as in, ‘did you get bad advice?’ mode. If you are going to kit yourself out for the hunter ring, are you going to work to the current standard, or are you going to thumb your nose ‘just because’? If, like the OP, you are going to stick a toe in the water from a different discipline, by all means, use what you have.

For example there is zero reason to braid your horse on the left side, so why take the judge’s eye away from what you want her to focus on?

If someone is showing in the A/Os at rated show I would expect their turnout to be impeccable. Me and my horse showing at the local level that is attended by riders who show at the rated shows, will be outfitted as close to correct as we can get without buying a new saddle.

I grew up riding hunters. I do love the tradition. What was ingrained in me as tradition no longer is. I don’t get my panties wadded over it. If my black tack offends oh well. I am not trying to go to Devon or anything. I didn’t mean to imply I am going in thumbing my nose. In my experience the people who criticize and freak out the most over minor details tend to be the mediocre riders. They are neither terrible riders, but they aren’t world beaters either.

Also, if a left handed person can do pro quality braids on the left side because it’s easier for them being left handed. Who cares? How many conversations have there been about affording shows? Maybe that left handed person braids themselves to make showing more affordable.

I would hope people would take your approach and wonder if the person got bad information and help them rather than have a coronary.

If everyone survived the approved helmet rule (anyone remember that push back?) then I feel like they can deal with a Pelham, a horse neatly braided on the left, and whatever other small details causes people to faint.

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

My understanding of the pelham was that is was developed as an alternative to the full bridle (or double bridle as now seen almost exclusively in upper level dressage) for horses and ponies with small mouths that did not allow for two bits to be used at once. And if you look at old paintings of fox hunting scenes, every single horse has a full bridle, not a pelham. You can clearly see two bit hangers has part of the bridle. So full or double bridles have a place and a history in hunters for sure.

However, I was told that pelhams also became very popular as a lazy alternative to the double bridle. They began to be used by riders who did not have the finesse necessary to ride with two bits at the same time, and that progressed to people not bothering to learn to use a double bridle at all because they had the convenience of the pelham. And then recently, that pelham has become a handbrake of sorts, indicating a horse that doesn’t respect (or know) all of the aids. Indicating a hole somewhere in its training?

So given the history of the pelham, and unless you are riding a pony, it follows that when judges see a pelham, that will tip them off that maybe the rider, or the horse or both have holes in their education. So the judge will be more inclined to penalize mistakes and little bobbles harder because as soon as the horse stepped in the ring, the rider “announces” that they can only achieve “harmony” with a big piece of hardware. It is certainly forgivable in pony hunters or in green divisions where the jumps are very small and perhaps the horse doesn’t have a ton of experience in a busy show environment. I will concede that sometimes a handbrake is better for everyone’s safety where green horses or riders are concerned.

I think that judges placing a horse with a stronger bit lower than a horse who had a nearly identical round but went in a snaffle is a totally acceptable form of bias. What side your braids are on, the color of your breeches/tack/show coat and the shape of your saddle pad says nothing about your skills as a rider, or the horse that you are riding. But your bit speaks volumes. So I think that hostile attitudes towards pelhams have plenty of justification.

If your horse truly does “prefer” a pelham over anything else, you have to at least recognize that the bit is criticized for good reason.

[Midge]

@TheMoo

If someone is showing in the A/Os at rated show I would expect their turnout to be impeccable. Me and my horse showing at the local level that is attended by riders who show at the rated shows, will be outfitted as close to correct as we can get without buying a new saddle.

I grew up riding hunters. I do love the tradition. What was ingrained in me as tradition no longer is. I don’t get my panties wadded over it. If my black tack offends oh well. I am not trying to go to Devon or anything. I didn’t mean to imply I am going in thumbing my nose. In my experience the people who criticize and freak out the most over minor details tend to be the mediocre riders. They are neither terrible riders, but they aren’t world beaters either.

Also, if a left handed person can do pro quality braids on the left side because it’s easier for them being left handed. Who cares? How many conversations have there been about affording shows? Maybe that left handed person braids themselves to make showing more affordable.

I would hope people would take your approach and wonder if the person got bad information and help them rather than have a coronary.

If everyone survived the approved helmet rule (anyone remember that push back?) then I feel like they can deal with a Pelham, a horse neatly braided on the left, and whatever other small details causes people to faint.

I think most people in a tizzy over minor details don’t have enough more important things to worry about. I personally wouldn’t want to give any judge the opportunity to like me less. I did show in rust breeches when they were not in fashion, because I do love them. I left them home for Capital Challenge, however.

I do have to wonder what the handedness of a person has to do with what side the horse gets braided on.

[NoSuchPerson]

I disagree that “hostile attitudes towards pelhams have plenty of justification.”

You can’t just make a blanket statement that pelhams are harsher bits than snaffles. Unless you actually look inside the horse’s mouth, you have no idea what that snaffle’s mouthpiece is, and the harshness of that snaffle bit is strongly dependent on the nature of the mouthpiece.

Penalizing any horse wearing a pelham on the grounds that it’s a stronger bit than all of the snaffles being worn by other horses makes no sense unless you know exactly what kind of snaffle those horses are wearing. I’m not sure I would buy the argument that a short shank pelham with a rubber mouthpiece and a properly adjusted curb chain is a harsher bit than, e.g., a double twisted wire snaffle.

I also think that it’s unfair to assume that the only reason someone would use a pelham is because they need better brakes. People don’t use curb bits just to get better brakes. They use them to get specific responses that are better elicited using a leverage bit than a snaffle.

Note that I’m not saying that people don’t get penalized for using a pelham. Depending on the judge, that may well be the case. What I’m saying is that assumptions that all pelhams are harsher than any snaffle aren’t based on reality.

[doublesstable]

@Midge

Beautiful picture Midge… which brings up another myth… who’s riding your horse pins better in the class

[doublesstable]

@NoSuchPerson

I disagree that “hostile attitudes towards pelhams have plenty of justification.”

You can’t just make a blanket statement that pelhams are harsher bits than snaffles. Unless you actually look inside the horse’s mouth, you have no idea what that snaffle’s mouthpiece is, and the harshness of that snaffle bit is strongly dependent on the nature of the mouthpiece.

Penalizing any horse wearing a pelham on the grounds that it’s a stronger bit than all of the snaffles being worn by other horses makes no sense unless you know exactly what kind of snaffle those horses are wearing. I’m not sure I would buy the argument that a short shank pelham with a rubber mouthpiece and a properly adjusted curb chain is a harsher bit than, e.g., a double twisted wire snaffle.

I also think that it’s unfair to assume that the only reason someone would use a pelham is because they need better brakes. People don’t use curb bits just to get better brakes. They use them to get specific responses that are better elicited using a leverage bit than a snaffle.

Note that I’m not saying that people don’t get penalized for using a pelham. Depending on the judge, that may well be the case. What I’m saying is that assumptions that all pelhams are harsher than any snaffle aren’t based on reality.

I use a rubber Pelham and have used a double twisted wire full cheek on one of my horses. I still prefer the Pelham… how the double twist gives a quick response, the Pelham has such leverage that it is easier to elevate the poll. I’m still not quite sure which is “stronger” just a different feel depending on the horse and what is needed.

I don’t think Pelhams should be looked down on but guaranteed they are in the A hunter world.

@222orchids

Doubles: You and I need a Pelham support group. To go back to my post, this mare has stunning looks, a beautiful way of going, perfectly square knees over every jump, and 20/20 vision. In other words, the stuff that MATTERS. The fact that she likes her Pelham better than her snaffle is the most ridiculous reason in the world to ding her in the rIng. When I was riding back in the Stone Age, a Pelham was typical. We need to get over this D-ring addiction and start pinning horses according to the criteria stated in the rules, and by custom.

Yes!! It is a perfectly legal bit… I use a rubber pelham and it just feels right when riding.

@eclipse

I’ll join your group…I use a Pelham too! My big dude loves a Pelham, my little shirt 5ft1 body also loves the Pelham…sometimes snaffles just don’t cut it, and a stronger bit allows for lighter hands and aids lol

Yes!! I agree about the light hands… it’s actually a good point. Both my horses are very soft in the mouth… you can have a soft feel and then just elevate the hand slightly and squeeze your fingers for the balancing aide.

@Backstage

I agree. That said, while there are probably some judges who mark down a pelham regardless of performance, certainly many horses who go in a Pelham do not have the same soft connection that you see with a snaffle. A lot of people who use a Pelham are using them because the horse tends to get strong. It can be a good tool, but can also result in a horse that “has its head down” but also has a shorter neck, some tension and may end up behind the vertical.

Of course, the same thing can happen with a snaffle depending on the rider! and I’ve seen some horses that go beautifully in a Pelham.

Honestly, I think the reality is that while there are few judges out there with some real quirks and preferences, most will reward a good trip.

That said, I can’t speak to something like WEF-level competition. If you are faced with picking between multiple spectacular trips, you need to be a bit more particular. But then, I don’t think anyone is showing up in the hunters at WEF with a monoflap saddle!

I know many complain about the limits of hunter attire…but I kind of like it. I evented as a junior, and certainly by comparison have fewer decision to make about my show attire in my new show hunter life! It can be less “fun” at times, I suppose. But there are lots of schooling days at home when I can use my bridle with brass fittings.

I agree that the snaffle creates a picture of softness and natural balance that they want to see. It seems like in the hunters it’s not an easy discipline. I think one of the most difficult ones… you have to have a softness like you are not doing anything as if the horse is traveling along balanced and correct from an invisible rider… ha that’s for sure not easy.

The issue with good trips; when you have 35 horses in the Green division (this was the case at my horses last competition) there are some yummy looking movers and jumpers! It then becomes the details that set them apart.

@Rockonxox

I’ll join Pelhams Support Group too. I haven’t had any issues with the regional series marking me down because of it. Hopefully I’ll go to at least one A show this year and we’ll see what happens - although pretty sure that my horses sticky canter will be the downfall and not what bit he has. We use the pelham because 17.3 is a leaner (not “strong”, just big) and my 5’3 with short arms has difficulty with that in the snaffle. Both of us are happier in the pelham.

As someone who collects scores for shows and reads the comments (sometimes I get to see the matching rounds) tack has never been one of the notations. A horses approach and way of going over the fences and overall appearance (ie: clean and put together) > tack details.

Ha Ha - welcome!!!

Agree on the bit use… one of my horses is 17 3 as well. He is for sure a lot bigger than me. I like the leverage of the Pelham… it allows me not to pull when I am asking for balance.

I remember when I was younger and the first time I rode i a Pelham I said to the trainer; this feels like I am cheating… it’s a great bit for many reasons.

[RugBug]

Breaking one of my cardinal rules…posting before reading everything, but whatevs. What are rules for if not to break them.

My general thoughts on this thread: There are a whole lot of trends and fashions that people pass of as requirements. IMO, they aren’t, they are fleeting and constantly evolving. Anyone that’s been around a while can tell you that. I am willing to guarantee that the judge from 40 years ago isn’t going to mind seeing a full cheek snaffle instead of a D-Ring. Or a half pad vs. a shaped pad. Or white breeches on Sundays. or even a Black saddle. (I coveted my friend’s black Crosby Corinthian that she successfully showed her hunter pony in in the mid 80s).

That said, it’s really hard to find a black close contact saddle…just like it’s hard to find a brown dressage saddle. The non-dressage saddles that aren’t dressage are typically AP cuts and don’t usually help with your hunt seat position.

It’s WAY easier for a trainer to say ‘you have to show in a navy coat, white shirt, have brown fancy stitched bridle, etc’ rather than having to explain why the brown bridle with the clincher browband is going to standout and maybe that’s not what you want to do at this stage in the game. Turnout is an indicator of knowledge of the discipline and many trainers don’t want to give the impression that they don’t understand that. Every one of their riders is a walking billboard for their business. Some of them go overboard with it…and some of them are also incentivized to do so…It’s not hard to understand how we go from a trainer telling a student that s/he wants their horse in a D-ring and perhaps justifying it by saying the will be marked down if they aren’t, to people thinking it’s an actual rule.

@RAyers

I very much agree. Most folks who ride in show hunters would never do an actual field hunt. I never see any h/j hunter folks out on the hunt.

H/J Hunters have been around long enough to have ‘traditions’ of their own at this point. Yes, we are very far removed from the field hunters but that doesn’t mean there isn’t still tradition, or better yet, fashion, all it’s own. Every discipline has that, even eventing.

@RAyers

To me, this is another example of the lunacy to which the hunter world has gone so far beyond horsemanship. The claims that things like braiding on the left or right or colors of clothing are somehow indicative of horsemanship is just stupid. When appearances and presentation outweigh substance of ability in people’s heads, they have lost sight of what is truly important.

Are people really saying braiding on the right or left is indicative of horsemanship? I didn’t get that at all. It is indicative of knowledge of the discipline, not horsemanship…although sometimes there is a cross over. A skinny, dull-coated horse with an ill-fitting pad IS indicative of a lack of horsemanship. Braiding on the left is not. :shrug:

[snaffle635]

Pics from winners at WEF last week…

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/…tRV7xKJfHTS8mo

2 horses without martingales
2 horses in pelhams
1 horse with a blue eye
horses with leather girths, nylon girths, and fuzzy girths
can’t tell if Akinda’s wearing a half pad or if her pad slipped back
a kid wearing white breeches with a shad
someone with a saddle so dark, it could be black

Yes, there’s a general conformity in appearance, especially since all the riders are wearing dark, solid color coats and shads. But if you look closely at the details, there are differences.