The old joke transposed to this occasion:
How many old time hunter riders does it take to change a light
bulb?
Ten. One to change the light bulb and nine to stand around and talk about how good the old bulb was. 
All the posters griping about the form or lack thereof in the pictures of some of the pros, by all means, go out and do it better and win. Iām not a judge, but Iām around a lot of judges and have NEVER heard them say " X ducks like a banshee so Y must jump especially well". Ever. They arenāt winning because they are ducking or god forbid their legs fly out of position. They, generally, have the nicest horse.
Whatever the reason, they arenāt going to be 100 % all the time on every horse they ride over every. single. jump. Itās just not possible. Enjoy the hunters for what they are (or donāt) and seriously cut down on the holier than thou attitudes. But please post on this thread when you, your string and your perfect eq are out winning at the big shows.
I donāt have to be currently out winning eq ribbons to gripe or criticise the current hunter form. I will never understand or appreciate the dhramatical low crouch over small (or any) jumps so precious to todayās hunter show rider. I find it unfortunate, distracting, unconventional, and contratry to proper riding education. Thatās my opinion and I have a right to say so on a thread about the subject, and Pennywell Bay doesnāt have a right to shame me into not talking about it because Iām not bringing home ribbons at big shows. Iām a former jumper AND hunter rider and showed around CT and NY in the 70ās. I fox hunted, and tain for eventing and am a very talented, tidy rider over large fences and timber in stadium and cross country with classic form. Iām not showing and I donāt have to show and win to have an opinion about the uselessness of current show hunter āstyleā and riding.
Well, gee, I guess she told usā¦photos please?
Peter Pletcher has a video called Unnecessary Drama on Equestrian Coach.com where he also states that good riders of the past never did this and it is very distracting .
Observationā¦ I saw much much much MUCH less of this in schooling than in the ring. The rider would be more centered/balanced with traditional equitation out over the schooling jumps-- and then go into the ring and jump with the more exaggerated style. I am sure the horses jumped better over fill-- but not astoundingly better in my opinion (the ones with an amazing jump had amazing jumps over the warmup fences).
That plus the fact that these pros are SO GOOD and leave SO LITTLE TO CHANCE makes me think thereās an element of intention/showmanship in this style. Whether you like the style or not. Whether it has a physical effect or itās mere superstition-- these tippee top pros are not riding like that because they donāt know any better or canāt do any better.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7608323]
Observationā¦ I saw much much much MUCH less of this in schooling than in the ring. The rider would be more centered/balanced with traditional equitation out over the schooling jumps-- and then go into the ring and jump with the more exaggerated style. I am sure the horses jumped better over fill-- but not astoundingly better in my opinion (the ones with an amazing jump had amazing jumps over the warmup fences).
That plus the fact that these pros are SO GOOD and leave SO LITTLE TO CHANCE makes me think thereās an element of intention/showmanship in this style. Whether you like the style or not. Whether it has a physical effect or itās mere superstition-- these tippee top pros are not riding like that because they donāt know any better or canāt do any better.[/QUOTE]
I also find it interesting that postions get cleaned up fast on the really demanding handy rounds! I come back to the fact that itās done ābecause it canā.
And the problem doesnāt seem to be with the top pros, who can ride a horse the way that specific horse needs to be ridden - whether the ride needed is unconventional or classic in style - it is with the juniors and amateurs who emulate said pro, without the ability to discern WHY they are riding the way they are, or the physical ability to make the switch based on the horseās way of going.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;7608275]
I donāt have to be currently out winning eq ribbons to gripe or criticise the current hunter form. I will never understand or appreciate the dhramatical low crouch over small (or any) jumps so precious to todayās hunter show rider. I find it unfortunate, distracting, unconventional, and contratry to proper riding education. Thatās my opinion and I have a right to say so on a thread about the subject, and Pennywell Bay doesnāt have a right to shame me into not talking about it because Iām not bringing home ribbons at big shows. [/QUOTE]
I agree. You have the right to your opinion and it can even contain truth despite not being out there and winning.
However,
Iām a former jumper AND hunter rider and showed around CT and NY in the 70ās. I fox hunted, and tain for eventing and am a very talented, tidy rider over large fences and timber in stadium and cross country with classic form.
Words mean nothing on the internet. You say that you are very talented, and tidy with classic form. Well, Iāve heard those words from people that can barely stay on a packer over a crossrail. This is the internet, afterall. Honestly, the most talented riders I know usually donāt tell anyone how good they are. They let pictures/videos and results, if they are showing, do the speaking for them.
I just want to know- what is it on the ground below these jumps that these riders find so fascinating ? 
[QUOTE=Tony;7608315]
Peter Pletcher has a video called Unnecessary Drama on Equestrian Coach.com where he also states that good riders of the past never did this and it is very distracting .[/QUOTE]
And yet PJP is one of the biggest offenders of said unnecessary drama. Meh, he wins, who cares?
Denny Emerson shows pictures of himself all the time with legs swining back and looking down etc from years back. He states he still took the time and effort (with the help of Jack Le Goffe(sp) and others) to learn how to ride well. He always complains about people not wanting to improve themselved just because they got a ribbonā¦
This is a pro who still wanted to improve. I love looking at his pictures when he is in total sync with the horse. Looks amazingā¦ and at 72 years young he still looks better then some of the now prosā¦jmho
[QUOTE=Alternative1;7597831]
Equitation is so overrated.[/QUOTE]
Usually said by those that donāt ride well and donāt have the inclination to learn!
We use Show Hunter here in NZ to improve the quality of jumping and to give the riders a real reason to improve their riding.
Anyone can learn to sit well, just takes some self discipline and practise.
OP so agree with you, part of this lies with teaching crest release instead of teaching riders to sit in balance and follow through with their hand
Iām a former jumper AND hunter rider and showed around CT and NY in the 70ās. I fox hunted, and tain for eventing and am a very talented, tidy rider over large fences and timber in stadium and cross country with classic form. Iām not showing and I donāt have to show and win to have an opinion about the uselessness of current show hunter āstyleā and riding.
ā¦and?
slow hand clap
So is this one of the top jumper riders who wins with great equitation?
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152249156652730&substory_index=0&id=201373652729
Congrats to him, by the way, on a successful start at Spruce Meadows.
I spent all day yesterday at Upperville watching the pro hunter divisions, and I tried really hard to pay attention to the horrible Eq from the riders in the ring, but once again I was so distracted by the incredible jumping of the horses in the professional ring that I feel I am unable to give an educated critique of their riders.
By the way, Sandy Ferrell is my personal favorite to watch.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;7608275]
I donāt have to be currently out winning eq ribbons to gripe or criticise the current hunter form. I will never understand or appreciate the dhramatical low crouch over small (or any) jumps so precious to todayās hunter show rider. I find it unfortunate, distracting, unconventional, and contratry to proper riding education. Thatās my opinion and I have a right to say so on a thread about the subject, and Pennywell Bay doesnāt have a right to shame me into not talking about it because Iām not bringing home ribbons at big shows. Iām a former jumper AND hunter rider and showed around CT and NY in the 70ās. I fox hunted, and tain for eventing and am a very talented, tidy rider over large fences and timber in stadium and cross country with classic form. Iām not showing and I donāt have to show and win to have an opinion about the uselessness of current show hunter āstyleā and riding.[/QUOTE]
Iām not trying to āshameā anyone and everyone is welcome to their opinion. I rarely focus on the rider in hunters unless it is an āOMG they are going to crash and burnā moment. Again, itās like everything else. āIā donāt like snap shirts or zip boots. Some do for a variety of reasons. āIā donāt post to the canter and donāt like it. It clearly works for some people.
Styles of riding evolve for most riders. Personally I āequitateā even though I do hunters because it is my best hope of staying on my horse, and I am a decent ammy. I think if I rode a string of horses, trained etc, had to get the horse to BIG somewhat scary jumps my equitation may slip up a pic or two if I have done 40 plus fences in a day.
Iām not saying I know āwhyā they duck or why the leg slipped back. Is their knee bothering them? Their shoulder? Are they getting ready for a handy turn? Did they feel something in the horse we canāt see? A hesistation, a balk, thinking about sucking back? Is the white jump with brush the jump that the horse may run out on, balk at? Was the approach not ideal?
Kind of like a quarterback in football who throws a WTF pass. They may have 30 good ones, but people jump on the crappy ones.
I donāt think any of the pros are proud of less than ideal pictures of them but they sure should be proud of the winning ways. Flaming the pros for less than ideal positions is getting common. Yes, I donāt have to open the thread, I get that. It is certanily easy to arm chair quarter back and say āWell āIā would never ride like that.ā Ok, well get a huge string, win, be on the road in hotels all the time, and teach, and train, and deal with owners, new potential customers etc and say it. Yes, it came out snarky from me, but Iām just pointing out it is easier to sit and criticize than actually"do".
And to the pros and ammys who have good eq all the time, it is a blessing and I wish I knew how it was done.
