Hunter rules

[costco_muffins]

@vxf111

I personally would rather come at a jump of size balanced and on the correct lead, even if it means trotting a step to change. In the grand scheme of things. safety ought to be more important-- not ribbons. So you do what’s right for the horse since you’re already pretty out of contention.

I love that you said this!

We try to instill in the kids and adults who ride at our shows that safety and learning is the most important - but also want to educate about WHY they might be scored one over another.

As a side note, there was an interesting moment of judging this weekend (with a top quality R rated judge) that we spent quite a bit of time discussing. It was in an equitation medal class at 2’6" with six riders.

Rider 1 was on a push button hunter type horse, correct leads or clean lead changes/decent distances and position.
Rider 2 was on a green but willing jumper/eq type horse, landed leads/great position and ride for the horse’s abilities
Rider 3 was on a large pony eventer, simple changes and more of an upright position/rode to the base and had tighter distances

Rider 1 had three canter strides before the trot fence, took a longer route for the rollback
Rider 2 broke to a trot for a step in a rollback, great trot fence
Rider 3 had two simple changes but a flawless trot fence and rollback
All other riders had suitable lead changes and a variety of minor errors on course.

In a class of 6,

Rider 1 was first
Rider 3 was fifth
Rider 2 was sixth

The judge explained that she penalized Rider 2 the most harshly because she didn’t support through the rollback - it was her error and not the horse’s. She wasn’t the biggest fan of the dressagey ride of Rider 3 and penalized the trot change, hence their placing. For rider 1, the canter before the jump was an error, but it was clear that she had established the trot and the horse made the error not the kid, so she didn’t penalize as much as something else.

[findeight]

Keep in mind there are no USE Nationally Rated classes below 3’ (except Pony and younger age group Eq). The rules really refer to how the show is conducted, what kind of classes and how many in a division…like 2 o/f and a hack and so forth. Just transferring performance expectations for bigger fences and courses to beginner riders is not helping them or their horses master the basics of maintaining pace, balance and control around a course.

I not only don’t like to see simple changes penalized in tiny “jump” classes that are just step overs. Hate the prevailing concept a 12’ stride is appropriate with no jump into or out of the line, that encourages rushing and not learning to keep the horse in front of the leg. Those should be 10ish to 11 max, at 12’ with no real jump, the add is appropriate.

Despite the availability of resources on course building, including appropriate stride length, few shows (and too many " trainers") seem to grasp the concept or are too lazy to move the lines in or out when they raise/lower the fences And, yes, I’ve worked many small shows that moved them, helped move them myself. Takes 10 minutes.

[Midge]

Cantering the trot jump is a major error. The kid allowed the horse to canter. So your judged penalized two riders heavily for a break in gait and let the other break in gait be the winner.

[BeeHoney]

IME, the judging can be highly variable at local shows. Some local show judges try to apply A-show type judging to the 2’ division at a local show, where a break in stride for a tidy and obedient simple change (or a shorter strided animal consistently and smoothly adding strides) results in a terrible placing, despite an otherwise nice round. The better local show judges IMO (and this is purely opinion here), do not penalize novice riders or green horses for well executed simple changes or for adding strides appropriate to their animal’s capability.

Personally I go to local shows for the training opportunity and for some early miles for green horses. So I really don’t even care what the judge is looking for, I’m not going to canter my greenie around the turn on the wrong lead, I’m going to regroup and do the simple change if that’s what I have to do.

Frankly, it’s easy for those of use who primarily show at rated shows to forget, but there is a very large pool of horses out there that are kind and serviceable jumpers but that lack a flying lead change or have a shorter stride. These horses have an important purpose, and I personally don’t think that those horses should be relegated to automatic 55s, etc. at the local show level. Why? Because at that level, there’s often a LOT of other material to judge. It seems fundamentally wrong to me to see a decent little horse put in a tidy round with a simple change and a consistent add, and then be beaten by a horse with the changes and the strides who was verging on being out of control or had some other serious problem.

[costco_muffins]

@Midge

Cantering the trot jump is a major error. The kid allowed the horse to canter. So your judged penalized two riders heavily for a break in gait and let the other break in gait be the winner.

I agree that it seemed odd, but if put in the context that a canter stride before a trot fence is -10 from your original score, and the judge was wowed by the round prior, then a score of perhaps 90 would drop to perhaps somewhere between 70 and 80. This could very reasonably win a class with other significant, but not major, errors (like excessive throwing of the body at the jump, an awkward tight distance, a scary gappy distance, etc).

And I wanted to clarify: Rider 2 had the correct lead, broke to the trot, and then picked up the canter again.

[vxf111]

Some might view trotting the canter jump as not actually doing the test/off course.

[Midge]

@costco_muffins

I agree that it seemed odd, but if put in the context that a canter stride before a trot fence is -10 from your original score, and the judge was wowed by the round prior, then a score of perhaps 90 would drop to perhaps somewhere between 70 and 80. This could very reasonably win a class with other significant, but not major, errors (like excessive throwing of the body at the jump, an awkward tight distance, a scary gappy distance, etc).

And I wanted to clarify: Rider 2 had the correct lead, broke to the trot, and then picked up the canter again.

The rider cantered three strides, not one, which is a complete failure to maintain her gait and to complete the test as required. I think that makes her fifth. I assume she was the most polished rider of the group, but it wasn’t her day to win because she did not perform the test.

[costco_muffins]

@Midge

The rider cantered three strides, not one, which is a complete failure to maintain her gait and to complete the test as required. I think that makes her fifth. I assume she was the most polished rider of the group, but it wasn’t her day to win because she did not perform the test.

You and vxf111 bring up an interesting point, and one that we discussed extensively with Julie Winkel - the difference between failure to attempt the test and failure to execute the test. If the girl had never attempted to establish a trot and had simply cantered on, she would have been given a 55. Because she had a trot, and failed to maintain it, it was a penalty but not an automatic 55.

And I do think the judge was generous to Rider 1, and harsh to Rider 2. According to the judge (whom we spoke to afterwords to learn why as we are always wanting to educate riders) Rider 2 was winning the class but when she broke that dropped her to the bottom.

I think it just brings up how subjective judging is! I always try to watch a few rounds and get a feel for what the judge likes. In this case, the judge really liked a long, stretched out poked nose in the undersaddle and didn’t care how packaged a horse was for the Eq not to jump. She liked consistency in rounds and an add all the way around wasn’t harshly penalized but poor jumping form was. In Eq, she liked a minimalist approach and a deep heel and quiet upper body but wasn’t as picky about arms and hands.

That is part of what makes horse showing fun! The variety of opinions

[Linny]

@Sunflower

If you have a horse without a good auto change, it is easy to get a lead change “in the air” by using an opening inside rein over the fence, encouraging the horse to land on the lead you would otherwise be changing to after the fence.

This works to a degree but when the jumps are 2’ and are essentially canter strides, it’s tough. It also results in short stirrup kids learning to drop one hand and lean in.

[Lyssabd]

Somewhat different perspective - I think it depends on the horse, rider, and showing situation. I participated in a hunter trial (so not rated, I realize that!) with my hunt/event horse. Not a traditional hunter, but goes around lovely on a long rein and has the best cadence to his canter.

We don’t have a lead change at this point. Typically I can get him to land correctly, but my trainer and I spoke at length about how to handle the lead change if we didn’t manage a correct landing. Our simple changes were jumbled at the time, head in the air, head toss, the whole shebang, and we decided that counter cantering the corner would be better for our situation. Now, my horse has a stellar counter canter, so this was the BEST option for US. We executed several lovely corners at the counter canter, and while we did not win the class, the judge complemented me later on choosing the best option for us. We had no break in rhythm, we still had an appropriate bend and there was no scrambling around a corner on an off lead.

Long story short, if your adult riders know how to properly keep their horse together in a counter canter situation, and if the occasion warrants it (local schooling show, hunt trial, etc.) then it could be a good option.

[vxf111]

I think it’s an unusual horse that has an insurmountable problem learning to do neat/collected/controlled simple changes. I’m not doubting they exist SOMEWHERE out there or that it might not make sense to try for them on a horse that never does shows and is just doing on last-minute to fill in or something… but if your horse can handle doing transitions of gait (and I can’t imagine how you get anything done otherwise) it seems like it should be able to learn to do neat simple changes without unnecessary drama. How does one manage in dressage if the horse can’t go from canter to trot/walk? That’s pretty much on every test?

[findeight]

Sometimes a judge gets the luxury of nit picking great rounds by accomplished riders to determine who wins and who places in what irder behind them. However, in classes like the example here, it’s the judges opinion on which was less bad. Not exactly best of the worst but there’s no way everybody is going to agree with the placings.

Plus we didn’t see the trips so…who knows the overall impression the judge had of the competency of these riders.