Was taking a couple of students/friends that are getting back into the ring after many years of being mommy’s out to schooling shows this season and recently found out that it is better to continue cantering on the wrong lead then ask for a simple change because of breaking gate…what’s everyone feelings on this, I’m feeling conflicted apparently I’ve been out of the loop. I’ve been at A shows doing the jumpers and would like any other feedback or pointers for the 2 foot hunters…
I’ve always been told that it’s better to get the change (flying or simple) before the turn than to go through the turn on the wrong lead. I can’t imagine why a judge would award more points for cantering on the wrong lead than a simple and neat simple change.
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I think it might be a judge’s preference at a certain point. At an A level I would expect the horse to have its changes and be able to complete a flying change before the corner. There is no break in gait so you would be penalized for a late change (again depending on judge’s preferences) but I have always been taught to never go around a corner still on the wrong lead.
If we are talking lower-level showing where lead changes aren’t as expected, I still think the bigger fault is to continue on the wrong lead (at least in an equitation class). I was always taught (and passed on to other younger riders) that in equitation you want to show the judge that you know the lead is wrong and you are trying to change it (a simple change is better than no change at all).
I wasn’t totally clear if you were just doing schooling shows or if you HAVE been doing schooling shows and are now returning to rated/A shows. If you are doing schooling shows, change the lead however you need to and you should be fine. If you are showing As, the flying change will be necessary if you want to pin well unfortunately.
Because a break in gait (not gate) in the Hunters scores below a wrong lead in the rule book. It’s always been considered a more major fault then staying in the canter even on the wrong lead, that gets penalized too, just not as much.
BUT anything below 3’ (except Pony and age group Eq) is not Nationally Rated so rules can vary and/or the judge given more disgression, especially non Rated locals. Many of those schooling shows specify simple lead changes are not penalized in tiny jump classes for novices or Green horses. However one who gets the lead changes will get a higher score and a wrong lead might still score higher if there is too much of a struggle to get the simple change.
Check the rules for those novice classes on the prize list if the riders cannot do a lead change reliably and pick one that doesn’t penalize simples or just plan as clean a simple as possible and chalk it up as good mileage until they polish up their skills. Might be a good incentive to get that done.
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You are talking about the lesser of two evils – neither is an appealing option, and in any kind of decent company, neither should be in contention to pin! Technically, the break in gait would score lower than continuing on the wrong lead, but that doesn’t make it a good choice. As others have noted, check the prize list because since you are talking about a local 2’ schooling hunter division, it is possible that they may say simple changes won’t be penalized. Fixing the lead is always “better” anyway!
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At all shows, it is totally the judge’s subjectivity. For our schooling show series, we hire rated judges, and often they are pretty strict about the “no breaking gait” rules. A break of gait gives a score of 55, which often puts you at the bottom of the class. A missed change or a half change would give you a similarly low score, but maybe not quite as bad. Our rules based on this start in our “Big Ring” which starts at 2’. Our “Little Ring” is groundpoles through 18" and judges are explicitly told not to penalize trot changes in that ring due to the abundance of serviceably sound schoolies who may or may not have changes.
The caveat to all this is that your judge is still picking the best of the class. If the only horse to have flying changes at a schooling show chips every fence, has terrible form, and adds down every line while bucking, the simple change might beat him.
Below is a scoring guideline that we post at our shows to educate riders. This was developed with the help of Julie Winkel and confirmed as a ROUGH guide of what the other rated judges we use mark for rounds. And this doesn’t mean that everyone follows these rules exactly. If two horses break gait and trot changes but one has an absolutely brilliant jump and is breathtaking while the other jumps over it’s shoulder, they don’t both get 65s. One might get a 65 and the other a 67 to indicate that the more brilliant horse made major errors, but was of higher quality.
LWSC Scoring Guidelines
for Hunter and Equitation Rounds
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]First refusal[/TD]
[TD]automatic 40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Second refusal[/TD]
[TD]automatic 30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rail down (in the hunters)[/TD]
[TD]automatic 45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fail to attempt part of the test (ex: cantering a trot fence)[/TD]
[TD]automatic 55[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Breaking Gait (including simple changes)[/TD]
[TD]automatic 55[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adding in a combination (one or two stride)[/TD]
[TD]automatic 50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Adding in a line[/TD]
[TD]automatic 65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Skip change (hind legs trot to finish the lead change)[/TD]
[TD]automatic 65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Using whip in front of the leg[/TD]
[TD]automatic 60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rail down (in equitation)[/TD]
[TD]-4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Unsuitability (excessively large kid on small pony, small kid on large horse)[/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Forgetting opening or closing circle (when appropriate)[/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]One canter stride before trot fence[/TD]
[TD]-10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Poor jumping form over trot fence[/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
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From a RULES perspective, BOTH a change through the trot (HU 137.2.i) AND completely missing a lead change (HU 137.2.g) are considered “major errors”.
From a TRAINING perspective, you have already lost the class. Do whichever is better training for THAT horse.
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generally a wrong lead without a break can be near 60 give or take, a break is a 55 or less no matter what
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do those scores mean, for example, your round is an automatic 55 or 45 for the various large faults? Or does it just go down by that much for each one?
That’s your score for the round.
I’d always been taught that, if a class description does not specifically state “Trotting on corners permitted” then yes, a simple change is a bigger fault than wrong lead.
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Wow… thank you everyone for your feedback these are women that have been out of the show ring for 10 to 20+ years and all of them felt uncomfortable regardless of scoring to allow a horse to canter on the wrong lead( knowing that some of our horses are not automatic or easy at the flying change ), myself included as the trainer and feeling quite out of the loop considering I’ve spent so many years in the jumper arena and not to mention @ A shows… doing my homework thank you again
At the unrated schooling show level I must say that I dislike this “rule” very much. All your IEA and IHSA riders have a simple change not penalized permission at their shows and as a local judge myself I sure as heck would rather see a savvy kid know she is on the WL and do an efficient simple change vs. the kid who has no clue and wings around out of balance on the wrong lead through the turns. Most times the horse then swaps up front and cross canters which is a horrible mess. To do a well managed simple change is just good sense and good horsemanship in my mind and I have no idea why this “rated” show rule has such big influence at the schooling show level (yea I know most schooling shows just put a blanket statement in that their show will follow all USEF rules". BS in my mind.
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It makes perfect sense if the concept of a schooling show is that it’s a chance to “school” for bigger shows in the future. Better to learn the rules from the start than to hit a huge road bump at a later show where suddenly diagonals and lead changes actually count, or martingales are cause for elimination in a flat class, or what have you.
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If you have a horse without a good auto change, it is easy to get a lead change “in the air” by using an opening inside rein over the fence, encouraging the horse to land on the lead you would otherwise be changing to after the fence.
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As a board member for a local club, I agree that the “USEF rules in effect” is a good idea, but most of our judges (all USEF rated) do use discretion. Many of our riders are on schoolies. Most judges would rather see a quick trot step than a disastrous corner and resulting bad next fence. Our rules for Hopeful Hunters (2’) specifically allow for simple changes. How to organize the simple vs flying changes is at the discretion of the judge. We did once have a girl complain that her horse with changes should have beaten one without but it didn’t go far because her horse had a swap but a terrible jump and he bucked on course. The winner was a very nice baby who did one skip change.
They also realize that it is not fair to penalize the added stride for the rider on the 14.3 pony who can’t get the lines like the old big eq horse with stride to spare. I’ve seen so many wrecks because trainers scream GO to a kid on a short strided animal in order to “make the lines” when the judge would rather see a well executed add. We all know that making the lines is important once you get to rated shows but you won’t get there if you constantly crash at the oxer out of the lines. Besides, one hopes that by then you are riding a horse with the appropriate step.
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Keep in mind there are no USE Nationally Rated classes below 3’ (except Pony and younger age group Eq). The rules really refer to how the show is conducted, what kind of classes and how many in a division…like 2 o/f and a hack and so forth. Just transferring performance expectations for bigger fences and courses to beginner riders is not helping them or their horses master the basics of maintaining pace, balance and control around a course.
I not only don’t like to see simple changes penalized in tiny “jump” classes that are just step overs. Hate the prevailing concept a 12’ stride is appropriate with no jump into or out of the line, that encourages rushing and not learning to keep the horse in front of the leg. Those should be 10ish to 11 max, failing that, at 12’ with no real jump, the add is appropriate.
Despite the availability of resources on course building, including appropriate stride length all the way down to poles, few shows (and too many " trainers") seem to grasp the concept or are too lazy to move the lines in or out when they raise/lower the fences And, yes, I’ve worked many small shows that moved them, helped move them myself. Takes 10 minutes.
Posting a scoring guide for competitors is a BRILLIANT IDEA!!!
I will say that when I judge (4H and very low level shows) I will generally apply USEF rules except for adding (and tack since 4H has its own different rules on tack). So long as it appears to be an actually shorter strided horse/pony (as opposed to just a rider with a death grip who won’t let the horse move forward or some other riding error causing the adds) AND the horse/pony does the same all around (i.e. adds one on every line as compared to sometimes adding and sometimes not) I will treat that the same as a horse who got the “numbers.”
Why do I do this? Unlike the issue of changes which is addressed in the prizelist (with a few classes where you’re explicitly allowed to trot corners to change) there is rarely any way to address this with class selection. Some of the time the measurements are… ahem… creative (and often not marked on the course diagram) and there’s SUCH a mix of animals in terms of type/style/quantity. Plus the classes break down a little odd. Sometimes there’s a 11.2 pony in the same class with horses. The small is NEVER going to get the horse step and shouldn’t be expected to.
So if I see a pony add one in every line, I would otherwise treat that the same as a round where the pony got the numbers.
If you leave out at a schooling/low level show you’re not getting a ribbon from me. Because that’s usually dangerous or shows an out of control ride. But a controlled add that is a rider choice appropriate for the mount? I don’t mind that.
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I personally would rather come at a jump of size balanced and on the correct lead, even if it means trotting a step to change. In the grand scheme of things. safety ought to be more important-- not ribbons. So you do what’s right for the horse since you’re already pretty out of contention.
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