Hunter talk with the Jay Duke show today

[Joyrider]

Jay Duke hosted a discussion with Geoff Case, Catie Staszak and Kethy Serio on his show today about the state of hunters and hunter judging. A few points made really resonated with me.

Kathy Serio mentioned that while so many things in the hunter world have changed, such as…the horses, the courses, the footing, the money being spent, that pretty much the one thing that hasn’t evolved is the judging and it is beyond time that it should.

Catie S. mentioned her interest in gaining a judge’s card and that she had tried to get into a hunter judges clinic at WEF and was basically turned away being told it was full. Same thing happened to me when they (finally) had one up here in the Northeast at Saratoga a few years ago. I begged to be allowed to audit, jump crew, pick up trash - anything to get in = nope. What the heck USEF? Why wouldn’t you want to attract as many interested parties even as silent auditors to learn and become educated? This sport is already mysterious enough with the judging to the average competitor and parent.

In thinking about gaining a judge’s card, Catie mentioned having better and more accessible avenues for younger judges to go through the training and become licensed. My own take is yes that is a good thought and let’s add on the aging pro who has a lifetime of experience and is now looking to judge as a way to gracefully step away from the action of riding and training. In keeping with Kathy and looking at ways to improvise, I furhter suggest that the standard small r and the large R get a hard look. How about a starter level for local judges that will never play at WEF, WEC and the like. How about an additional rating for regional judges that can then do the IHSA and IEA eq. shows with their starter card and not need the same criteria as the r or R? (Yes, I know this was all about hunters and I am talking about Eq. but this needs to be innovated and improved in several areas!).

Jay spoke about his daughter who was watching a special derby at WEF and couldn’t figure out the scoring as the scores were combined somehow or ??? …like 357? There was no explanation to be found about how a score like that could be. Why is this so difficult? Spectators want to understand what is going on.

Kathy brought up the expense of competing and having little prize money to earn back. Also, why is 3’3" AO and not Ammy? That is REALLY limiting to so many capable riding adults who want to lease and are not able to own.

It was a good show. I enjoyed listening to Geoff too and his thoughts on judging too. Check it out on FB.

[MHM]

@Joyrider

In thinking about gaining a judge’s card, Catie mentioned having better and more accessible avenues for younger judges to go through the training and become licensed. My own take is yes that is a good thought and let’s add on the aging pro who has a lifetime of experience and is now looking to judge as a way to gracefully step away from the action of riding and training. In keeping with Kathy and looking at ways to improvise, I furhter suggest that the standard small r and the large R get a hard look. How about a starter level for local judges that will never play at WEF, WEC and the like. How about an additional rating for regional judges that can then do the IHSA and IEA eq. shows with their starter card and not need the same criteria as the r or R?

I have not listened to the talk yet. But I did see the original Facebook post he made that got a lot of comments.

For a little history, the process of getting a judge’s card is already much simpler than it used to be. There used to be a lot more steps involved, and a lot more days of required learner judging and references. Now it has really been pared down.

And it’s even simpler for someone who uses the mentor approach, which would apply to many people who are shifting gears after they have shown a lot, even though it is an entirely different skill set. Knowing about the horse aspect is a good start, but a judge needs to develop solid bookkeeping skills to apply that knowledge in the judge’s booth. Like anything else involving horses, there is no substitute for practice. I’ve seen some cases where judges got in hot water by rushing through the process and getting in over their heads once they got their cards.

I don’t know if it’s the same everywhere, but in my area, IEA judges don’t need to have a USEF judge’s card. They need to have some relevant experience, but not the formal card from USEF.

Regarding the limits on attendance at the judge’s clinics, there is a point where the size of the group gets unwieldy, and it’s not productive to have such a large crowd that there is not much individual attention.

[Puffergrrl]

IMHO, after listening to Catie commenting all these years, I’d pass on having her as a judge.

[MHM]

I’m not familiar with Catie. What shows has she commented on in the past?

[Puffergrrl]

She gets tapped to do almost any horse show that NBC covers…which admittedly isn’t a ton. I know she always does The American Gold Cup. I think they may have broadcast the World Cup class at Deeridge and/or Live Oak and she would have done those.

[MHM]

Thanks.

[Figment]

I listened to the show, and have followed the recent comments on Jay’s page regarding judging. Hunter judging does seem mysterious to many, and takes trainers a good while to explain to parents and exhibitors. Parents get very frustrated because there isn’t anything concrete to explain the judging of their pony kid. Scoring every round, and announcing scores, would really help, and help keep judges accountable, since trainers really discourage requesting to look at cards. What do you guys think?

[MHM]

@Figment

Scoring every round, and announcing scores, would really help, and help keep judges accountable, since trainers really discourage requesting to look at cards. What do you guys think?

Most judges already score all the rounds. Announcing scores all the time sounds like a simple thing, but the logistics are more complicated. When you have a show with multiple rings, there are often two or more sets of officials using each radio channel. The judge, the ingate person, and the announcer are all communicating back and forth all day long, and many announcers will cover two or more rings at once. It can get extremely complicated to announce scores all day, which is why it doesn’t happen all the time.

The judge’s primary responsibility is to pin each class in the correct order. If the judge is too busy verifying scores with the announcer all day long to pin them in the correct order, it is counterproductive in the big picture.

I wish all the people who think they know how to completely revamp the judging system would actually judge a few times so they could understand the current system a bit better. Even if they just judged a little local lesson show or schooling show, they would have a much better grasp of the challenges involved.

[equinelibrium]

Full disclosure, the last time I showed in the hunters was over 10 years ago and I have no intention of returning any time soon. But I 10000% agree that hunter judging needs to change. It makes no sense to me that you are just expected to accept your placing without being given a good reason by the judge. It leaves you wondering if you’re being judged on things other than your round, like who’s waiting for you at the in-gate. Last time I made a comment about this I got told that I obviously needed to learn more about hunter judging This is not a problem exclusive to the hunters, it can happen in any subjective sport, and many other subjective sports have resolved this with scoring systems similar to dressage. I just don’t see why asking for a bit of transparency in judging is too much to ask for.

I agree that the logistics can be super complicated, but eventers and dressage divas seem to have figured it out. If a local dressage schooling show run completely by volunteers can do it, surely the top hunter/jumper venues can as well…

[MHM]

@equinelibrium

I agree that the logistics can be super complicated, but eventers and dressage divas seem to have figured it out. If a local dressage schooling show run completely by volunteers can do it, surely the top hunter/jumper venues can as well…

I’m guessing the local dressage schooling show probably does not have 150-200 rides in a ring each day. That’s a pretty normal number at a lot of the major h/j shows.

[equinelibrium]

@MHM

I’m guessing the local dressage schooling show probably does not have 150-200 rides in a ring each day. That’s a pretty normal number at a lot of the major h/j shows.

True, but they had around 1000 entries at AECs the year I went with several hundred rides per day. They managed to get scores out very quickly, and there were 2 judges per ride. Obviously that event was run by professionals, but my point still stands. It can be done.

[GoodTimes]

The other problem I see with announcing scores is that the score is relative. It’s just a number so that the judge can put everyone in an order. It isn’t a number that will help parents or pony kids.
A score of 80 doesn’t mean anything without context.

I don’t like the idea of moving to a scoring system like dressage, gymnastics, or figure skating. I’ve heard people encourage the idea that each jump gets a score, a score for between the jumps, and a score for movement. I don’t like the idea that a rail or missed change with a “10” jump could theoretically beat an “7” jump with a better trip.

[theresak]

Large USDF dressage shows and regional championships do have 4+ rings going all day from 7:30 am to after 5 pm across all of the levels.

The course designer should know how long each trip takes and then the show organizer can account for the # of trips per day + X minutes between rounds for the judge to complete their scorecard while the next rider comes in and gets ready to start. Hey look, it’s a starting place for ride times for the Hunters…

I think even a few lines on a scorecard for each competitor would be helpful as well as standardizing the abbreviations/codes/symbols…or get a scribe for the judge. Or do it electronically with a scribe and have the judge review and “submit” when the class is done and pinned in the order they want.

[Peggy]

@theresak

Large USDF dressage shows and regional championships do have 4+ rings going all day from 7:30 am to after 5 pm across all of the levels

That’s still going to be fewer rides per ring per day than a HJ show. You figure 2 minutes per round for hunters and 2.5-3 for jumpers depending on the table and ring size. There are delays, course walks, and ring maintenance.

[MHM]

@theresak

Large USDF dressage shows and regional championships do have 4+ rings going all day from 7:30 am to after 5 pm across all of the levels.

The course designer should know how long each trip takes and then the show organizer can account for the # of trips per day + X minutes between rounds for the judge to complete their scorecard while the next rider comes in and gets ready to start. Hey look, it’s a starting place for ride times for the Hunters…

How many dressage rides take place in each ring in a day?

Are you suggesting that the organizers at a hunter show should limit the number of entries to allow extra time after each round? And hire scribes for each hunter ring as well? If a show manager were willing to do that, I’m pretty sure the fees for exhibitors would go up substantially to cover the additional costs and loss of entry fees.

[Bethe_Mounce]

Dressage scribes, of which I have been one since Christ was a child, usually are volunteers. We work for food. Dressage courts are dragged, we have breaks, we can run as many rings as venue allows. It’s a mini clinic for the scribe. A long time ago I remember the hunters having cards. Competitors could ask to see them. A test run at a small h/j show is a thought for contemplation…using a scribe to mark each stick and collectives at the end to mark how the overall round was. We can write very fast and legibly.

[outside_leg]

The problem goes beyond scribes. It goes to the numerical judging system as a whole. Only at the really high levels do judges have the luxury of determining which round scored an 83 and which scored the 84. The vast majority of the time, they are picking between rounds that all have a missed change, a trot step, a down rail, several bad distances, a refusal, etc. If every rider technically scored a 40, then what do you do? Who wins?

That’s the challenge that judges face now. However, it’s typically used as an excuse to not do anything. Rather, there should be an overhaul of the numerical deductions, or a switch to giving every jump a numerical score as well as a score for overall impressions, pace, balance, etc.

[AllOverFarm]

I’ve been watching my kids ride for over 10 years & I rode as a junior. I love watching the derby’s. But, admittedly I don’t understand the scoring system other then 40 for a dropped rail and 50 ( I think) if you trot on course.
What is the deduction for a stop? A missed lead? What is the deduction for a long distance/ or chip? What’s the deduction for a horse spooking? Adding in a line or leaving out? Horse celebrating after a jump?

Or are all these things just judges decision? Honestly, I don’t know.

[MintHillFarm]

@MHM

I wish all the people who think they know how to completely revamp the judging system would actually judge a few times so they could understand the current system a bit better. Even if they just judged a little local lesson show or schooling show, they would have a much better grasp of the challenges involved.

This.

Adding keeping 4 or more fence cards open; and for example, then being asked judge some Medals that go a bit later in the day, but at the same height, so now there are 6 cards open in front of you. Bless the in gate person that is keeping it straight! We have to make sure the trip goes on the correct card!

Good book keeping is a must! An example: 30 Adult Hunters trips (2 classes,15 ea class). Those results need to be ready to pin when the last horse exits the ring. If one is not organized, it will be a giant mess!

[dags]

Some folks talking about change have judged and anyone that’s been in the trenches of this sport for a certain length of time has a pretty good idea what goes on in the booth.

What strikes me is that many of the reasons for why evolution cannot happen are the same things judges complain about, ie: maintaining 6 open cards.

Competitors & judges have common ground here & should be breaking that open, not pointing fingers at each other. Those fingers need to be re-directed to show management; the ones that put us in this sun-up to sun-down 6-ring circus. They will be the first to oppose any evolution that even hints at altering their bottom line, sport be damned.