Hunter vs dressage rider positions

[c0608524]

I had my first dressage lesson this week. I am in love with my new coach (ok, a little exaggeration but she is awesome), she brought me right back down to the basics - which is what my OTTB and myself greatly needed. I’ve been a hunter rider the past 7 years, and generally ride with a light seat. So when I was told to put my legs ahead of me, which in turn made me sit up and on my seat bones it felt so… incorrect. I had the best ride I’ve had with my boy though, so I can’t argue the fact that although I felt like a big spaghetti noodle bouncing around, he was definitely moving well and even started reaching for contact a couple times.

Now we have some background, a question - does anyone else go between the hunter and dressage rings? Do you ride like a dressage rider in the hunter ring, or have I been a slouchy rider and it is just my hunter coach never corrected me? Am I imagining that big of a difference between our positions?

[SuzieQNutter]

I used to event and do Jumping Equitation which I think is like your hunters. I now do dressage.

Dressage saddles have different trees to jumping saddles. A dressage tree is designed to distribute the weight over the whole saddle. A jumping saddle doesn’t.

I had no problem going from one saddle or discipline to another. Neither did Pepper.

One penciller for the judge in the jumping equitation told me I looked better and better every time she saw me and I didn’t practice much jumping in between competitions and we were selected for the Zone Team for the championships.

For dressage I sit with straight line between shoulder, hip, heel.

For jumping equitation we used to fold and we stayed in 2 point for the whole round except saying hello to the judge.

[Scribbler]

I ride both saddles/styles, though not at a high level. I have no problem schooling dressage flatwork in my jump saddle; if I need a longer leg for a shoulder-in, for instance, I can always drop the stirrups.

However, both my dressage and jump saddles are low-profile, with small knee rolls. Most contemporary dressage saddles, and many jump saddles, have far more exaggerated rolls and blocks, which might alter your position more.

IME, the same basic rules of equitation apply to both. Your leg should drop below your body, heels/hip/shoulders in a line. You should be sitting up straight, your elbows should be bent, and there should be a straight line from the bit to your elbows. Riding both styles correctly is mutually re-inforcing.

Without seeing before and after pics of you, it’s hard to say whether your dressage coach is correcting long-standing faults or is pushing you into stylized dressage position that might not be the best thing, long term.

Lots of huntseat riders do end up with their calves slipping backwards toward the saddle pad, and tipping forward. In this case, just getting your leg under you properly and sitting erect will feel like you have your leg forward.

On the other hand, some dressage riders do lean too far back, so that their shoulders stick out past the back of the cantle, and get into a slouchy-waisted c hair seat, with their legs in front of them. You don’t want that.

[Lusoluv]

I am a full time dressage rider dipping into the eventing world again. Though the light seat/hunter position is more forward in the upper body to be able to jump vs. a very upright vertical dressage position, it is not as forward as most jumpers think. You still must stretch tall, not hunched, and be balanced over your stirrups not relying on the horse’s neck or your reins. Not sure why the instructor told you to put your legs ahead of you? That would put you in a chair seat or even behind a vertical position…unless you were leaning forwards or had you lower leg too far back??

Your weight should always fall down the back of your leg and heel in either saddle to be correct. It does take time to perfect one position, hunter or dressage, let alone both as they are different for the different disciplines. But again, both keep the rider in balance with the horse for the job at hand - it’s not a style or look you’re trying to mimick

[Color_of_Light]

I think it’s fun to learn both, and then will have more skills and greater appreciation for other styles of riding and what they are trying to accomplish. I started out a competitive hunter rider (10 yrs), then turned dressage rider (>20 years). Tough transition for me from “perched” to “sitting, feeling horse, with leg relaxed, on horse, under me”. I just couldn’t do it in the beginning, since h/j seat was second nature. Now, I’d call h/j equ perched not feeling the horse (other MMV), and dressage equ actually sitting on the horse, feeling and communicating all parts of its body. When I did HJ, I had no concept of a horse being crooked or where their body parts were (YMMV). Having ridden a few very well seasoned, retired, national level hunters in lessons after surrendering to dressage >20 years…they felt so stiff all directions, hollow and crooked compared to my dressage horses. And unresponsive to dressage aids (of course). I think they just wanted me to sit there, do nothing and let them do all the work.

I competed training thru FEI >18 yeaars, now retired from competition for most part. Dressage position is second nature to me. I still jump occasionally, but I now look like a dressager trying to jump…still trying to be particular about my equ, crest release, leg under me (but I don’t like to ride with super short stirrups now), but no longer perched hunt seat equ on my crotch like I did back then (was zone hunt equ champ), (if I was jumping 3’ courses, I’d probably fall off :winkgrin:)…I can now feel my entire horse. My leg is straighter, on my horse, not toes turned out, gripping calf, heels crammed down.

The part where your instructor said “legs ahead of you” might be because she didn’t know what other words to say?? Dressage, like hunters, have foot directly under the body. Only difference is knees are just bent much more in h/j. Shorter the stirrup, greater the knee bend, more difficult it is to sit in the saddle, so more perched on crotch. Mechanically impossible to keep straight from ear to foot with short stirrups, and really sit butt in saddle. Legs would almost have to go forward. In either riding style, if foot goes too far back, upper body falls forward, and entire leg slides behind. In either style, if foot goes too far ahead of you, you are in a chair seat, upper body goes back as legs go forward.

When I ride dressage or h/j, I am still balanced. My foot is still below me, but difference is length of stirrup, which regulates degree of knee bend. Leg is never ahead. I’d feel really wrong and off balance.

Hard to say if you were a slouchy hunter rider, without pictures. I’m guessing your’e a beautiful hunter rider. I love that you want to learn dressage and new skills.

[lecoeurtriste]

saddle fit will affect rider position

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8456048]
Mechanically impossible to keep straight from ear to foot with short stirrups, and really sit butt in saddle. Legs would almost have to go forward. [/QUOTE]

I would (respectfully) disagree with this statement as a 100% black/white thing, as I think it depends greatly on the saddle shape and your ability to truly sit. I do FEI dressage (for real) and event (for fun). I am 5’9" on a 15.1hh horse, and really crank my jump stirrups up to avoid hitting the tops of cross country jumps with my feet (I hate that!). I ride in a very flat (no knee roll), close-contact Amerigo Vega, so my femurs have plenty of room to go forward when my knees flex, to keep my heels directly under my shoulder and hip. My mare prefers to be ridden from the seat, so I sit deep until her front feet are off the ground, and can still do tempis, half-pass, etc. from the seat with those crazy short stirrups.

Not having seen the OP’s saddle, stirrup length, etc., it could be that the shape of the knee/thigh blocks are seriously contributing to their position perception challenges. Have fun on your dressage journey, OP!

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=lecoeurtriste;8456217]
I would (respectfully) disagree with this statement as a 100% black/white thing, as I think it depends greatly on the saddle shape and your ability to truly sit. I do FEI dressage (for real) and event (for fun). I am 5’9" on a 15.1hh horse, and really crank my jump stirrups up to avoid hitting the tops of cross country jumps with my feet (I hate that!). I ride in a very flat (no knee roll), close-contact Amerigo Vega, so my femurs have plenty of room to go forward when my knees flex, to keep my heels directly under my shoulder and hip. My mare prefers to be ridden from the seat, so I sit deep until her front feet are off the ground, and can still do tempis, half-pass, etc. from the seat with those crazy short stirrups.

Not having seen the OP’s saddle, stirrup length, etc., it could be that the shape of the knee/thigh blocks are seriously contributing to their position perception challenges. Have fun on your dressage journey, OP![/QUOTE]

Amerigo Vega for dressage, eventing, or jumping?

That’s ok. What I specifically mean is…In a jumping saddle, where the seat is formed completely different than a dressage saddle, flaps put on forward…putting rider forward on the seat bones…if stirrups are short, knees are bent hunter style, there’s no way a riders rear is fully sitting and making the same seat contact as in a dressage saddle. H/j seat has femur forward at a 45 angle, or less. Buttocks won't be fully in the saddle. Same saddle, and I drop my stirrups longer, "dressage style". Femur/hip angle becomes closer to 0. More of buttocks make contact with the saddle. So yes, both have seat contact, but it is not the same “riding from the seat”. Especially when stirrups are short. I would expect that a trained FEI horse might still be able to discern subtle aids, even with a different seat position.

Since I’m not sure which Amerigo Vega you are riding in, if it is eventing or jumping, and you do dressage in it, your horse is used to you asking from that position. Other FEI horses in same forward seat saddle, might say ‘no way’ if rider’s weight is shifted more forward. Your horse just sounds ambidextrous…fei dressage and eventing!

Hopefully the op’s saddle naturally puts her in a natural straight dressage seat, not chair dressage seat (how trainer wanted leg forward).

[plaidbreeches]

I rode hunters and dressage at the same time for two years.

Literally a lesson at the hunter barn on a green ottb in the morning, and dressage lesson on a friesian at the other in the afternoon, every Thursday.

What I found was my hunter lessons suddenly became a lot easier. I saw distances a lot more naturally, and could feel what was happening underneath me a lot quicker and easier. I think I probably rode just a bit more open and upright in the close contact saddle than I did before, yeah, but I didn’t have a problem switching. Maybe because I was in a different environment in different tack on different horses, but I had two mindsets and they didn’t really get crossed up.

[asterix]

For me the hardest thing that has not yet been explicitly mentioned is the much more open hip angle in dressage. The saddle helps dramatically but it will take time to get your leg feeling that differently. As an event rider I switch between jumping and dressage saddles and disciplines several times a week and am quite used to it - but they do feel different. As I got a more correct dressage seat and leg I was able to lower my stirrups in my dressage saddle several holes.

[lecoeurtriste]

[QUOTE=Color of Light;8456279]
What I specifically mean is…In a jumping saddle, where the seat is formed completely different than a dressage saddle, flaps put on forward…putting rider forward on the seat bones…if stirrups are short, knees are bent hunter style, there’s no way a riders rear is fully sitting and making the same seat contact as in a dressage saddle. H/j seat has femur forward at a 45 angle, or less. Buttocks won't be fully in the saddle. Same saddle, and I drop my stirrups longer, "dressage style". Femur/hip angle becomes closer to 0. More of buttocks make contact with the saddle. So yes, both have seat contact, but it is not the same “riding from the seat”. [/QUOTE]

Again, I’m going to disagree from a biomechanics perspective. Anatomically, the positioning of the ischial tuberosities (seat bones) is completely independent of the femoral-acetabular (hip) angle. If the saddle fits the rider for the length stirrup wanted and the rider has adequate flexibility and core stability to control pelvic rotation/tilt, the knee can be bent to nearly any degree and not affect the amount of contact the seat bones make with the saddle. If the saddle doesn’t fit the rider well and blocks the forward movement of the knee as it flexes, the only way to keep the COG over the heels (base of support) is to change something in the hip angle, amount/direction of pelvic tilt, etc.

If you’ve ever done resistance training squats AND tried squatting down like a baseball catcher, you can see that the relative location of the knee under the COG affects the “seat” position (baseball squat = seat on your heels in line with the shoulders and hips; weight lifting squat = knees, shoulders, and heels in line and your seat way out behind you). To feel the simulated effect of a “block” or “resistance” to your knee moving forward as impeded by an ill-fitting saddle (yes, I know that jump saddle blocks are further forward–this is just to illustrate a concept), face a wall with your toes and knees against it–then squat. Nearly everyone will have to shift the seat back away from the heel/knee/shoulder line to keep from falling on their behind!

Another poster mentioned that the more open hip angle in the dressage saddle felt considerably different than the closed hip angle in a jumping saddle–this happens to lots of us, and it usually relates to hip flexor tightness. Short stirrups keep the hip flexors in a shortened position while in the tack (and often an anterior rotated pelvis)…if we lack flexibility in that muscle group, when we lengthen stirrups, the only way to adapt (to keep the longer stirrup on our foot) is to lean the trunk forward to maintain the “tight” muscle length and/or anterior pelvic tilt. This usually has the unintended consequence of pushing the leg back too.

Long story short, a well fitted saddle that is designed to have the stirrup length desired (long, short) for the activity you’re doing will not affect the rider’s ability to ride from their seat (so long as they have the requisite flexibility and core strength). FWIW, look at the good German jumper riders–they ride nearly completely from the seat.

[Lusoluv]

Yes ^^^^^ to the above post!!!

And the reason many European riders ride better from the seat is because they undergo extensive, systematic dressage training before they are ever allowed to jump! I believe it was DeNemethy (sp) who said what 3 things does it take to be a top jumper?

1. A good seat, 2) A good seat 3) A good seat

Your seat has no influence if it’s never in the saddle…including a jump saddle!

[silverdog]

Great post. I have been an event/dressage rider that swapped between saddles with no problem in the past. For a variety of reasons I went to the jumpers with my prior horse and happily bid my dressage saddle good bye. My current young horse started in the hunters and since I am way to poor to buy a lovely hunter saddle just show him in my XC saddle. Fast forward a few years and I am ready to start showing my youngish horse in eventing. He does have a lovely custom dressage saddle but for some reason, I just can’t get along with it. Perhaps too much time in my jump saddle? I am a runner as well with very tight hip flexors and that might be part of the problem. So I am just doing my dressage in my XC saddle and except for getting 6’s on rider position on the dressage tests, we are doing great! I keep telling myself to get on with riding in the dressage saddle but I just am not quite willing to be uncomfortable. May just have to be OK with getting a crap rider score because the rest of it is good.

[silverdog]

And yes…I absolutely agree about the impact of a saddle that does not fit the rider well. IE my lovely custom dressage saddle. Grrrrrr. Last one I buy. My XC saddle is semi custom and fits like a dream. I love riding in it.