Hunters for Dummies

[SillyHorse]

@CBoylen

At Global dressage there are 36 horses showing today.

That’s not the real reason, though. We often have more than twice that many horses showing at our two-ring shows, and even more at the three-ring ones. One reason is that each dressage test takes a certain average amount of time to complete. Once the person responsible for scheduling (usually the show secretary) knows how many people have entered and what test(s) they are riding, they can schedule according to the amount of time needed for each test.

That brings us to the second reason: You can’t enter a class “on the fly” like you can at a hunter show.
There is an opening date and a closing date for entries, the closing date being at least a week before the show day. This allows the show secretary to make the schedule.

Shows usually run pretty close to on time. The scratches and the tests that take a bit longer to ride tend to balance each other out.

[MHM]

@SillyHorse

That’s not the real reason, though. We often have more than twice that many horses showing at our two-ring shows, and even more at the three-ring ones.

Twice as many would be 72. Three times as many would be 108.

108 rounds would be a light day in one ring at a busy hunter/jumper show that might have 8-10 other rings going at the same time.

[SillyHorse]

@MHM

@SillyHorse

That’s not the real reason, though. We often have more than twice that many horses showing at our two-ring shows, and even more at the three-ring ones.

Twice as many would be 72. Three times as many would be 108.

108 rounds would be a light day in one ring at a busy hunter/jumper show that might have 8-10 other rings going at the same time.

So what? CBoylen implied that the low number of entries at Global on a particular day is the reason that dressage shows are less chaotic than H/J shows. That’s simply not true. It’s because rides must be scheduled in dressage shows. You can’t do that at hunter shows.

No need to get defensive. I’m just stating facts.

[findeight]

Well, Hunters pre enter their primary division as well, a month or more. Where you do see the on the fly entries are schooling classes usually earlier in the week and at smaller non rated shows so entrants can jump around an actual show course before their main priority class.

IMO the bigger cause is multiple rings, 8-15 rings or more. No matter what, trainers will have conflicts, riders will fall off, horse will pull down rails, knock standards out of place or demolish the whole fence. That stuff rarely happens at a dressage show, they dont have to designate some rings as priority and others as will wait rings.

Even with that, IME, good show can run 25 Hunter trips an hour, 200+ a day, including water and drag breaks, and good gatekeepers with good communication from in barn announcers updating can keep it moving pretty close to estimated time of go all day. Don’t mind adjusting my time plus cell phones have really made this easier.

I have no patience with one or two ring shows filled with riders needing hand holding, extensive practice and course review before going in while everybody else waits and the only ring sits empty.

[CBoylen]

I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate that you recognize that it would be very difficult to schedule ride times for a h/j show. But I do think the small numbers play a huge part. It’s way easier to organize and schedule smaller numbers. Fewer horses, fewer people, fewer rings, fewer conflicts.
You could probably do ride times for Harrisburg or Devon, for instance. Yes, because you have the entries well in advance for one reason, but also because the numbers aren’t huge, people aren’t showing that many multiple horses, and there’s only two rings.

[MHM]

@SillyHorse

No need to get defensive. I’m just stating facts.

I wasn’t getting defensive. I was just stating facts.

[Willesdon]

I’ve absolutely no skin in this game, but - given it is possible to regularly receive images back from the Mars probe - how much is the lack of a set ride time at these shows because a) ‘we’ve never done it so it is far too difficult’ or b) diva time for expensive trainers, or c) hesitation time for timid riders who can’t ride without the trainer who is somewhere else with another client. I suspect that if ride times were published for each ring and people lost their round if they failed to be on time then most of the hurry up and wait would disappear because, well, cures for cancers are actually common these days.

One thing that always catches my eye when looking at videos of top riders or winning round is the almost total lack of spectators around the ring, even at the biggest shows. Hanging around looking at an empty set of jumps must be like watching paint dry.

[findeight]

Unfortunately, theres no astrophysicists (sp?) or neurosurgeons with cutting edge technology running multiple ring shows. But there are some riding in the classes and they don’t move any faster then anybody else.

IME, the rings run much better on Stake days, especially Sundays because there’s fewer rings, fewer horses and those remaining have had several days of practice getting where they should be when they should be there knowing what they are supposed to know (like the course posted with distances since daybreak).

They also run better mid week on “ Pro” days. Still can be conflicts but sure aren’t alot of riders needing handholding or help learning the course. But they do want their coach there for, like, 5 min or so. And they pay for that on top of stall, entry and numerous other charges.

[CBoylen]

@Willesdon

hesitation time for timid riders who can’t ride without the trainer who is somewhere else with another client.

And we keep coming back to this. Again, no professionals are going to the ring without someone on the ground. In the hunter ring, in the jumper ring, at the Olympics, it has nothing to do with bravery or ability, it is about preparing to give your best performance. What other sports are played without a coach?

[crackerjack]

I think a difference between what we are used to in North America versus say the UK is that I think there are a lot more barns with programs. There’s also the expectations that you have x number of lessons a week and at the bigger barns a training ride or rides by the trainer/coach. Part of the business is taking your clients to shows whereas in the UK I don’t think that’s usually the case. I see more riders take a few lessons a month and go to shows on their own and if the trainer happens to be there as well they might be a pair of eyes on the ground. Correct me if I’m wrong @Willesdon.

@Willesdon you also mentioned the lack of spectators. Other than maybe the big derby at WEF I don’t think you’d ever get any kind of crowds with the hunters. It’s a specific niche and honestly not at all exciting for spectators especially for those who don’t understand it.

During COVID my area did manage to have time slots for the hunters and jumpers in order to allow for social distancing etc. It can be done but requires a lot more effort. Of course there weren’t as many people showing and I can see when there are multiple rings and a trainer with multiple riders in different divisions that can get highly complicated.

[trubandloki]

@NancyM

It’s very strange to me that others feel this way. How sad.

Why be sad that others do not feel like you do? Why not just accept that we all need what we need and support those who do not think like you do?

I admit, I giggle at the ‘just get some nice stranger to do the jumps for you’ thing. No, no one really minds picking up the jump you knocked down. Even multiple times. But to me it is kind of rude to assume that others are hanging around just waiting to be your jump crew for you. Why not bring a friend to pick up or adjust your jumps?
Having run SJ warm-up at several events, the amount of times I have to put down what I am doing to run out and fix a jump because someone is warming up with no help on the ground is kind of crazy. I always say ‘no problem’ and smile while I am doing it. But darn, my day would run so much more smoothly if people would not expect me to be their ring crew too.

[Willesdon]

Here in the UK usually people take themselves to shows. If things go pear-shaped you go home and practice there, with your coach/trainer/teacher helping, perhaps. The whole process is so different. We don’t have shows that last for weeks. Royal Windsor Show is the largest outdoors and it is 4 days, each of which has many different classes, with only the SJ classes and the various main ring displays running on all four. Even big international Three Day Events really last for only 5 days, max. Distances are shorter, density of shows is higher. Costs are substantially lower, even though people will always, inevitably, moan about costs it is mainly to complain about the cost of diesel rather than entry fees. First world problems.

5 equestrian events - Badminton, Burghley, and three horse racing meetings - are in the top ten sporting events in terms of audience attendence in the UK. County Shows attract tens of thousands. Big shows like The London International at Christmas has 90 K audience, which is equal to one weekly Premier League football (soccer) match.

[Willesdon]

@CBoylen

Again, no professionals are going to the ring without someone on the ground. In the hunter ring, in the jumper ring, at the Olympics, it has nothing to do with bravery or ability, it is about preparing to give your best performance. What other sports are played without a coach?

A story. A Famous Person in Olympic Standard Eventing, who was Steward for the competition, came up to the water fence we were judging that day and said to us “Well, I’ve just had a career first. Someone has just asked me if they could delay their ride time because their Coach has been delayed and won’t arrive for another 30 minutes”. “Ohhh” - says us, with some surprise - “what did you say?” “I told them no, of course. For heavens sake, it is an unaffiliated [schooling show] 70 cm class and it was a child on a pony”.

Interestingly, there was one competitor listed as a member of the US Pony Club running that day.

[Einhorn]

Having been a heavy-set Hunter Rider back when I was young, yeah, I know all about the “finer details” in not getting pinned. Didn’t matter how flawless my round was, third was the most I could hope for.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Hunters in the US is a different business model from any other discipline— even in the US. Taking kids on ponies, adult ammies is not only the bread and butter of the trainers- but a lot of shows.

There were 32 entered in a 2’6 class, smaller heights always fill. The show had 4 rings going. Trainers are running all over. So if NASA had to herd kids and ponies and nervous ammies - we probably would have not landed the Rover.

I’m not sorry that I find zero pleasure in not letting a child on a pony wait for the trainer. Eventing is different so I’m not sure what circumstances surrounded that, I find it surprising that it was expected in eventing.

Look down with disdain all you want. I am a lifelong hunter rider- turned jumper- dabbles In eventing…. Flawless hunter rounds are gorgeous and 8-10 perfect distances and changes is not easy. When you go to a hunter show- waiting is what you know to expect. Jumper divisions not as much but happens, just like when you sign up for dressage or eventing- you know what you’re getting.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

Are you talking about equitation or hunters? Because they aren’t the same thing and the judging criteria are entirely different.

[SadieRidingHorses]

@Pennywell_Bay

I’m not sorry that I find zero pleasure in not letting a child on a pony wait for the trainer. Eventing is different so I’m not sure what circumstances surrounded that, I find it surprising that it was expected in eventing.

@Pennywell_Bay, agreed. Showing (or any public performance) takes vulnerability and courage, and different folks have different needs and expectations. If changing a ride time was not possible at this particular event, all the steward needed to do was politely tell the rider/child that. If I was a volunteer and the steward came over to gossip to me about the incident, I would think it said a lot more about the steward (Olympian or not) than the rider.

I’ve spent time and money at this point across my life showing in three different disciplines (four if you want to count my forrays into barrel racing as a child), and doing Pony Club. I’m also an American who has spent a significant amount of time living and working in the UK, and who ended up marrying a Brit and bringing him home with me. This means once or twice a year I’m back in the UK, and we usually time our visits to align with some big horsey event. I admire the equestrian community and tradition there, a lot. But this attitude of “we do it this way here, and every other way is thus inferior” reflects a small-mindness and ignorance that’s pretty pathetic.

It’s horses. It’s a hobby. Throw fewer stones and just enjoy the day. You’ll be happier!

[Willesdon]

I knew as I posted that a “No” would upset people. But us Brits are more “Get it done” rather than “Look perfect” and I fully appreciate that perfection requires a very different style of management.

[CBoylen]

I think also the British have a bit more of a horse culture at this point in the families participating in horse sport. Here that trainerless child would likely be accompanied by a mother that won’t touch the horse and would thus be entirely on their own. If anything happened to go wrong in the ring the officials here hold the trainer responsible, and without the trainer present and a clueless family you would have a big cluster in an emergency or any kind of rules infraction, etc.

[Bristol_Bay]

But even if there were such a thing, the class schedule at the show my horse attended recently was changed three times the final day, from going at 8 am to 11:30. They publish the schedule on the website but you have to keep checking and refreshing. They don’t sent text or email alerts. While there are no ride times like dressage, they do seem to be able to tell trainers the day before what time the class is expected to run, but with riders adding and scratching up until the class ends, there’s no telling what the ride time will end up being. It’s so hard on the horses.