Hunters - What Are They REALLY All About?

[Ceylon_Star]

I recently had a conversation with someone about hunters, brought up after mentioning that the judge at a recent schooling flat show told me that my pony would excel in the hunter ring because he’s what a hunter is meant to be. The other person told me that hunters are “are for teaching horses to go long, strung out and on the forehand with lazy changes between fence” and that if my horse is “going around in a hunter fashion, he’ll be crippled in a matter of months”. Wow… I had a bit of respect for the person before this but now, not so much. I take pride in the fact that my horse is sound, happy to work, and willing to do whatever I ask simply because I asked. He may not be a fancy bred and papered warmblood like what she’s always owned/competed with, but he’s a pretty well put together and nice moving little guy (and no, I’m not the only one who thinks/says so, haha!)

Anywho, I digress.

This conversation got me to wondering if what this person said is true? She claims that the distances in a hunter course are set to “force the horse to travel on their forehand” and that hunters are “a good way for beginner riders to get good show experience remembering a course and show off how push button their horse is”.

I was taught that the hunters were designed (originally, this may no longer be the case) to show the suitability of a horse for fox hunting. Horses were supposed to be athletic but responsive, have an adjustable but smooth gait/stride, be bold but not rushy, and have square knees over fences. I was also never allowed to try the jumpers until I was consistently doing well in the hunters. My coaches believed that if you couldn’t ride a decent hunter round there was no reason for you to ride the jumpers when it was a lot more technical and had a match the clock aspect to it compared to the hunters. I was also under the impression that distances are set so that equines of all sizes can ride the same fences, riders just needed to adjust the stride length to suit their mount?

So what exactly are the hunters all about?

[doublesstable]

When shopping for a Hunter a la 2013 - you want to find a pretty decent sized horse (16 hands to 17 ish) with a ground covering canter.

I rode in the 80’s and the horses seemed to go along at more of a clip than the Hunters of today.

I don’t think it’s wrong at all; I think the horses of today have simply been bred for that soft open consistent canter stride vs the horses I rode as a kid.

If you watch all the top hunters in the big rings today they all have a very similar way of going and jumping. They are not quick and no, they are not going around on the forehand. They would crash into a big jump if that were the case. You do want a horse that has a very natural balanced “uphill” stride; it sure makes life a lot easier.

And asking what Hunters are all about is a pretty open ended question because it will mean so many different things to so many different people. Just as your friend had mentioned. That is probably how she sees it which what I have seen I disagree.

You can watch some really fabulous rounds here -

http://iamultimedia.com/cc/

[Ceylon_Star]

Thanks

The other person is an eventer and thinks that hunters are for sissies/meant to ruin horses. It’s her opinion and I don’t know anyone who agrees with her. But she’s also the sort of person who thinks that she knows everything and anyone who disagrees is stupid [insert eye-roll here]

When I showed in the hunters (about 10 years ago), there was always a trot fence, a skinny, and a “natural” fence (brush box, log, log pile, etc), a bending line, and a rollback. Now it seems like the courses are “line, diagonal, line, diagonal, line” and the jumps have nothing but a bar with some flowers as filler.

That link has some awesome videos, and the rounds I watched are more what I think of when I think of hunters. My little guy (at least when his leaser rides him) moves like that, just in a smaller package. But according to the other person, that sort of movement is going to cripple him? I was under the impression that the balanced, uphill, self-carriage, back-rounding movement was a GOOD thing. When did it suddenly become horse-crippling? [insert sarcasm here]

[alterhorse]

I think to have a relative understanding about hunters, you have to have some understanding about the other disciplines, like equitation, dressage, show jumping, eventing, endurance, saddle seat, and the western disciplines too.

Horses tend to be very versatile at adapting to what’s asked of them, so long as they are mentally and physically capable of doing what’s asked.

When you start to study how each discipline varies in what’s considered important, you can then begin to see how training for both the horse and the rider differs between each discipline, but you can also see what those different disciplines have in common.

In a nut shell, all disciplines are about well trained obedient horses that are capable of doing their job well.

The variable is, what job will the horse be required to do… and then horses with certain types of conformation, moving, and physical capabilities, are going to be better suited to doing different things, and the way the rider rides the horse will suit the horse’s job too.

To me Hunters are about cadence, calm, consistency, conformation, ability, obedience, accuracy, safety, relaxation, style, balance, carriage, capability, expression, and performance.

Other disciplines may also place importance on some of those same qualities, but the emphasis on which qualities are most important will change depending on the discipline.

The thing about hunters is that the qualities that are most important will change depending who you ask, what the judges are rewarding, and what’s currently in fashion.

So yea, it’s basically about emulating a horse out on a nice enjoyable leisurely fox hunt out on the old English countryside. The “idealized hunt participant” requires one’s horse to be calm, consistent, trustworthy, obedient, capable, reasonably good looking, turned out appropriately, comfortable and a pleasure to ride.

[copper1]

Things have morphed so far from the orgins that they are almost unrecognizable from what they started out-hunters, western pleasure, saddle breds, whole nine yards! Hunters started out as fox hunters and one guy said to another, “my horse is the best hunter in the field” and another guy said his was and they decided to have a competition and a third guy was the one to make the judgment and hunter shows began! The ideal is a horse that has the stride to cover the ground to keep up with hounds and that can safely and comfortably jump what is in front of him and that is still the basis of what we see in the show ring today. Yes, todays show horse would be hard put to keep up but he has to have the stride that if he were pushed he could
big difference on what a show hunter needs to do and what an event horse needs to. Questions asked are very different as well and your friend seems to be very snarky to cut down what you do. Ask her to get on your horse and lay down a winning hunter trip!

[chunky_munky]

There is a long, strong history of eventers telling hunter riders that their sport is superior. Watch most of them ride a stadium course and you can judge for yourself if they have the right to instruct you in the error of your ways. Don’t take any of it to heart. Jus’ sayin’.

[asterix]

Well that’s helpful. Respond to one snarky person making misinformed generalizations by…being snarky and making misinformed generalizations.
OP, fair to say your “friend” has no understanding of hunters…luckily some posters here are offering thoughtful responses.

[cswoodlandfairy]

I am mostly a jumper ( I cant stand the politics of the hunter ring) but have done my fair share of time in the hunter ring as well. I have found that what hunters are today are not what they were meant or designed to be back in the 80’s and 90’s. It is true that hunters were designed with the hunt horse in mind being capable to listen out in the hunt field. But the fences horses jump over in the hunter ring hack in the 80’s were logs, true verticals without all the fluff in it and natural obstacles.

I find that today’s hunter courses are filled with “verticals” (but truly oxers once you add the flowers, greenery, boxes, etc) and oxers that are more or less in straight lines. I will say I do still attend one local hunter show in my area and while the first course is basically as you describe the second course is a handy hunter course that involves trot fences, roll backs, and bending lines and I actually enjoy doing those courses and watching them.

Granted this is also my perspective, but I have seen way to many hunter shows poorly judged due to favorites or politics that I have a slightly negative thought about hunters. However this being said, I do see where it is challenging for riders to complete a “perfect” course.

[GoneAway]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7200707]
There is a long, strong history of eventers telling hunter riders that their sport is superior. Watch most of them ride a stadium course and you can judge for yourself if they have the right to instruct you in the error of your ways. Jus’ sayin’.[/QUOTE]

And there is an equally strong history of hunter/jumper/eq riders telling eventers that they run at fences and look scary, as your post seems to imply. So clearly, it goes both ways. Is the girl the OP’s talking about ignorant of the point of hunters and wrong for bashing them? Absolutely. But I don’t see how saying the “most eventers couldn’t ride a nice round to save their life” argument helps here. I grew up riding hunters and equitation, but I also spent a couple of years around mid-upper level eventers, and they have put down some of the smoothest rounds I have ever seen, PLUS balanced, correct equitation and a following hand. Can’t say I have seen that concentration of riding ability in even the top equitation or hunter rings.

There are good and bad riders in every sport. There are also ignorant folks. Just saying.

[meupatdoes]

Well, maybe watch your friend’s show jumping rounds and count how many times she misses per course. May shed some light on her resentment.

[chunky_munky]

I have lived in both worlds at various times and can assure you that many eventers take pride in diminishing the abilities of hunter riders. Not sure what fires their enjoyment in this. Frankly, I don’t see many hunter/jumper people give much thought about event riders. Truly accomplished riders can just change the horse and change the tack and swap over to another discipline with some good coaching without too much difficulty. Good riding is good riding and it can come in any form. I have seen good dressage riders that have never jumped a fence become pretty good hunter/jumper riders rather quickly. I have no “nationalist” view of any discipline. I am however always amused by the tendency of eventers to disparage the hunter/jumper riders abilities. Certainly didn’t take long for Marilyn Little to fit right in , did it?

[mvp]

IMO, the show hunter was supposed to demonstrate a really broke, safe pleasant jumping horse.

I can’t afford the discipline anymore, but man, I do love making and riding show hunters. I always will.

IMO, too, (good) Hunter People do the best job starting horses over fences. Because these horses have to remain relaxed while galloping and jumping, there’s no way having to avoid training the horse to understand his job. When that’s done, the horse takes very little physical strength to ride. It’s all just signals and how accurate the rider can be.

Also, the best hunters (like all horses) are 80% flat work. I’d like to think we share that with eventers. A hunter who has been taught to carry himself isn’t using up his body. The one thing eventers probably do better than we hunter people do is conditioning. If there’s a fair stereotype out there, it would be that hunters are too fat and don’t have enough bone/ligament density.

I don’t think the OP’s buddy knows what she’s talking about. Just like I don’t know jack about saddlebreds and can’t tell better from worse there.

[GoneAway]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7200834]
I have lived in both worlds at various times and can assure you that many eventers take pride in diminishing the abilities of hunter riders. Not sure what fires their enjoyment in this. Frankly, I don’t see many hunter/jumper people give much thought about event riders. Truly accomplished riders can just change the horse and change the tack and swap over to another discipline with some good coaching without too much difficulty. Good riding is good riding and it can come in any form. I have seen good dressage riders that have never jumped a fence become pretty good hunter/jumper riders rather quickly. I have no “nationalist” view of any discipline. I am however always amused by the tendency of eventers to disparage the hunter/jumper riders abilities. Certainly didn’t take long for Marilyn Little to fit right in , did it?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know where you grew up, but as a junior hunter/eq rider in the northeast, the only discipline critiques were coming from my fellow hunter riders. Eventers were “crazy yahoos,” ran their horses to fences, couldn’t ride a hunter round to save their life, etc. There was a superiority complex amongst us. Then I rode with eventers in VA, and I never once heard any of them make fun of or put hunters down. They were too nice and too busy. In fact one of the pros I rode with complimented my riding as a former hunter/eq rider and (for the reasons mvp listed) said she liked riding horses that were started as hunters. Again, no one in my years of eventing said a negative thing about the show hunter ring.

There are always going to be ignorant idiots like those hunter princesses I grew up with and that eventer who knows nothing about riding a hunter. Feeding the discipline bickering (“they made fun of us so let’s make fun of them”) doesn’t help anything. Whatever makes people feel better though. Personally, I like reading some of the posts about what makes a good hunter a good hunter. It’s educational and productive.

[chunky_munky]

My point is that good riding is good riding. My time has been spent in NJ, OH, FL and VA, a pretty good cross section. Plus part of what I do has me travelling to different horse events all over the country so I think I get a pretty valid overview that is not weighted by one geographic location.I think if you look through these boards you will see many, many, eventers come over to the hunter boards to give their two cents about how badly hunter/jumper people ride and what poor horsemen they are. I do not think you will find many that frequent the hunter boards crossing over to the event boards to do the same and laud their opinions. Just an observation that I have made on this very bulletin board. No hate, just an observation.

[GoneAway]

I’ve also been active all over New England states, NY, VA, MD, and the midwest. I also have what I feel is a pretty valid overview of how hunter/jumpers and eventers work. I’ve been part of many forums over the years, and again, the stupid bickering happends BOTH ways. That’s my point. I have seen for years hunter folks doing the exact same thing to eventers, both online and real life. And having played in both disciplines, I don’t like it going either direction. I agree with you that good riding is good riding.

[Calvincrowe]

Well, to echo Chunky Munky, the eventers that I’ve encountered who care to comment on other disciplines (and since my SIL events…) really do look down upon the hunter riders for their “in a ring, slow, proppy rides”. But…back to the OP’s question:

Your friend is full of crap.

[Couture_TB]

Sigh. I have dreams of riders in different disciplines learning that everyone can learn from each other.

Some hunter riders can learn from the eventers on how to ride and jump off of a controlled gallop jump and out of a ring.

Some eventer can learn from the equitation rider about not just worrying about getting over the jumps. And from the hunter rider how hard it can be to get that flowing effortless look over 8 jumps with making sure to get the perfect spot, and how hard it can be.

And everyone can learn from the foxhunters who just go out and have fun with no points, no ribbons.

And by the way, I’m an eventer and jumper rider who hates showing hunters due to politics but show all the young horses in the hunter ring before eventing or doing jumpers since I am a firm believer that they should learn to go quiet, round, and to think for themselves before they have any speed or harder pressure put on them.

[SueL]

IME, the creme de la creme of eventing don’t disparage hunters that way. They understand that it is different (flavor of ice cream for everyone, right?) but don’t put it down like your friend. And they do go to jumper riders for help in improving the show jumping aspect. At the highest levels, those rails can make a difference! I only see this type of attitude in eventers who compete at the very lowest levels. Your friend is ignorant IMO.

[Sing_Mia_Song]

I think that the people who are the most vociferous critics of other disciplines are the ones who have only seen the lower-level version of that discipline and assume it is representative across the board.

I evented a bit as a child before moving to a hunter/eq barn, and was certainly the “run at 'em” kind. I was also 12 and fearless. I moved on to get a good riding education in the hunters and equitation, foxhunted a bit when I aged out, and have been piddling around at the unrated level for the last 20-odd years. I’ve certainly seen hunters go around on their forehands, and I’ve also certainly seen judges reward horses who were not working off their hind ends, but who pointed their toes and had nice movement in front.

I’ve also seen lower-level eventers who gunned their horses at the jumps and yanked them around corners on a cross-canter. One particular eventing trainer likes to stand at the ingate at the local jumper shows and yell “go faster!”

In short, bad riding happens in both disciplines at certain levels. It’s up to you as an individual to educate yourself as to the truth, which is that dressage and self-carriage is useful in every discipline and that a horse going around a course on its forehand is an accident waiting to happen, no matter what ring it is.

The one truism about hunters is that it’s an e$x$p$e$n$s$i$v$e sport. I can’t compete at that level, but have recently gone over to the eventing dark side. My hunter background both helps and hinders in certain ways, but it’s fun to learn the nuances of a new sport.

[ccoronios]

In my rather vast experience (geographically, chronologically and in various disciplines), I have found that the truly knowledgeable horsemen in ANY discipline enjoy learning from and finding the similarities among the various disciplines and training methods.

It’s the ‘little guy’, who knows little about his/her ‘OWN’ discipline but purports to be an expert (the drawer full of blue ribbons from low level classes at local shows-type) who casts scathing looks and ignorant comments toward others. The need to have someone to feel superior to.

We ran into quite a bit of that (both levels) when we videoed dressage, hunters, saddle seat, cutting, reining…