[QUOTE=lockedoutalter;7205539]
I am hanging that in my tackbox next to the rabid garden snail I made for CHS. PRICELESS.[/QUOTE]
Glad you liked it. It took nearly my entire lunchbreak to create.
Translations from Mr. Trixie:
“Hi, I’m Gumps (“Jumpz”) McWithers, star of such shows as “How To Scare Off Men With A Sweatshirt” and “Details For The Equine Jingoist”. Today we’ll be examining how to breakdown a fluid movement into argument. I have with me an expert from COTH, a Mrs. Brazen Von Bridle, and a specialist in equestrogen, Dr. R.E.Inmein. Our focus group will be fielding calls from the viewing public regarding the highly controversial defiance of gravity achieved by a horse jump. Our first call is from a spouse of a rider, also a physicist, let’s go to the phones for some browbeating diatribes…”
“I would like to describe horsemanship within the analytical context of modern sport, but I fail to apprehend the level of contextual understanding that occurs between coaches and their subjects at the Olympic level. I will presume to circumscribe modern ring work within this paradigm, until I am reminded that extant contemporary showmanship in the equestrian arena is a function of centuries of development designed to breed functional equestrians for a variety of tasks, all uniquely suited to the organic vehicle of their conveyance. Far be it from me to presume that a controlled jump and post poise is synonymous with hurdling spiked stakes to come to a halt while the rider wields a rapier against combatants, or runs down a stag against a tree blind. I’m interested in not getting it.”
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7205564]
A lot of people have theories on half steps and this does not mean they think they are the “second coming of Podhajsky.” I myself have theories on half steps and still don’t think I am the “second coming of Podhajsky.” You probably have some thoughts on how to ride, but this does not mean you think you are the “second coming of Podhajsky.”
A lot of people discuss riding on this board despite the fact that they aren’t Grand Prix competitors, and nobody apparently feels it is their personal mission to really, really hit home the fact that they aren’t the “second coming of Podhajsky.”
So I am wondering why it is necessary to go all “kill kill kill! You’re not Einstein!” over physics when as windsor1 demonstrated it is just as possible to be reasonable and at least if you are talking to me I will be perfectly happy to concede a point?[/QUOTE]
I have theories about riding, but not about half steps. They are above my pay grade as a rider and I know it. So I keep my mouth shut about them, and physics.
It is not having any theories that is a problem, but talking about concepts in a way that implies you understand them but reveals you don’t that puts people off. But keep on keeping on, if you must.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7205584]
I have theories about riding, but not about half steps. They are above my pay grade as a rider and I know it. So I keep my mouth shut about them, and physics.
It is not having theories, but talking about concepts in a way that implies you understand them but reveals you don’t that puts people off. But keep on keeping on, if you must.[/QUOTE]
Um, overall, my understanding of speed contributing to balance was not wrong.
Over and over again RAyers himself confirmed that speed contributes to balance, such for example by citing that a perfectly designed top can stand without spinning but imperfectly built tops need to spin to stand. It is difficult for me to get why my understanding of something is incomplete when people, in their efforts to convince me how stupid I am, keep citing examples that support my original understanding.
It took a non-physicist to complete the picture. Speed may contribute to balance in things that spin, but not so much in things that don’t spin. Oh, ok! Why the physicist couldn’t have just said that (instead of trying to viciously disprove the part I actually got right) is up to him, I guess.
[QUOTE=RAyers;7205244]
So is it easier for a horse to balance at the full gallop? Is it easier for you to balance when you run as fast as you can? So, beginner riders should GALLOP fences?
The reason this part of the conversation started is the necessity of understanding how the centers of mass and gravity affect a horse’s ability to clear a fence. Hands on a neck change the rider’s CG (not CM) relative to the horse’s CM thus creating a new moment that alters the ballistic trajectory (bascule). But this only works if the rider places a significant fraction of their weight onto their hands.
This is where you are missing the fundamentals of statics and dynamics. It is not speed. On a bike or motorcycle it is the gyroscopic motion of the wheels. If we made the mass of the outer rims even heavier, we could slow the speed down to almost zero, theoretically. Hence why your comments on this subject matter are apples to pomegranates.
I spent almost a decade calculating CMs and CGs for heavy lift vehicles and orbital trajectories. Never had to include speed to figure out how to balance 2 million pounds on 32 square inches of launch heads.[/QUOTE]
Bike stability has been studied at Cornell:
http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/bicycle_mechanics/stablebicycle/index.htm
Basically, the stability gained by the moving bike is due to a caster effect, whereas the bike will tend to steer under it’s own center of mass whenever the bike begins to loose balance. If the bike leans to the right, the physics cause the bike to steer to the right to “catch itself”.
A moving bike is a self-stabalizing machine, whereas a stationary bike is not.
I believe meupatdoes has presented a more accurate explanation regarding bike stability.
[QUOTE=eclipse;7205150]
Oh for cryin’ out loud…why on earth couldn’t you just say “you jump ahead your ass generally lands on the ground”! 
[/QUOTE]
Because that’s not the result that my hypothesis is predicting.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7205285]
This thread is hilarious. I advise everyone to stick to their day jobs, only one of whom’s appears to be science.[/QUOTE]
One of my personal life rules is never to argue physics with a rocket scientist.
I also avoid land wars in Asia and never go against Sicilians when death is on the line.
ETA: Dammit, Coreene, now I’VE got it.
[QUOTE=alterhorse;7205632]
Because that’s not the result that my hypothesis is predicting.[/QUOTE]
I know I said that I stayed on in my aforelinked superman video, but usually the result of jumping ahead is (eventually, if not right away) your ass (or face)—>the dirt.
I mean, if you’re going to test out your hypothesis, please video for us.
[QUOTE=goodlife;7205635]
I mean, if you’re going to test out your hypothesis, please video for us.[/QUOTE]
Wanna bet she/he’s a non rider!!!..or hasn’t ridden for many years…or currently is horseless…or…or…or
For all you smarty pants arguing about center mass and center of gravity and momentum and friction and such, can you please relate these Very Important Laws to the topic at hand, which is “what are hunters really about”. For us Lit majors please.
For me, I know that if I have the right canter, forward and balanced and light in the front, and if I keep my body balanced with my chest open and my horse in front of my leg, I can find every distance and my horse jumps beautifully. If I don’t have those elements in place, then the quality of the jump and the ease in finding the sweet spot at the jump suffers.
There’s physics for you.
[QUOTE=goodlife;7205635]
I know I said that I stayed on in my aforelinked superman video, but usually the result of jumping ahead is (eventually, if not right away) your ass (or face)—>the dirt.
I mean, if you’re going to test out your hypothesis, please video for us.[/QUOTE]
My hypothesis is that the more forward neck weighting style of crest release may effect a horses bascule over a jump in the Hunter ring.
My hypothesis is relative to one of the aspects of what hunters are all about.
[QUOTE=alterhorse;7205707]
My hypothesis is that the more forward neck weighting style of crest release may effect a horses bascule over a jump in the Hunter ring.
My hypothesis is relative to one of the aspects of what hunters are all about.[/QUOTE]
That makes more sense. Your previous post implied that leaning up the neck improved a horse’s jump.
[QUOTE=goodlife;7205719]
That makes more sense. Your previous post implied that leaning up the neck improved a horse’s jump.[/QUOTE]
I do think it may improve a horses jump.
Haven’t you ever wondered why you see some of the top hunter riders using that style of release?
My hypothesis is an attempt to explain part of what hunter are all about.
My hypothesis about what the hunters are REALLY about will be in the form of interpretive dance, in my office.
Well, one thing that we do know is that often the top hunters jump noticeably better for their pro riders than they do for their ammy owners so the pros must be doing something positive to affect the quality of the jump.
Please forgive me if this has already been said somewhere on this thread.
[QUOTE=EAY;7205732]
Well, one thing that we do know is that often the top hunters jump noticeably better for their pro riders than they do for their ammy owners so the pros must be doing something positive to affect the quality of the jump.
Please forgive me if this has already been said somewhere on this thread.[/QUOTE]
Yes…and if alterhorse’s theory held any water it would mean that hunters would jump better for the jumping ahead ammie riders, but they don’t. So jumping ahead probably has very little to do with the horse’s jump.
[QUOTE=RugBug;7205779]
Yes…and if alterhorse’s theory held any water it would mean that hunters would jump better for the jumping ahead ammie riders, but they don’t. So jumping ahead probably has very little to do with the horse’s jump.[/QUOTE]
That may be the case if the horse is not ridden constantly in a balanced frame and the shift in center of gravity occurs only during the jump, as a top rider would amusingly be more likely to do, if my hypothesis is true.
A horse ridden balanced to a jump may use himself more effectively then a horse that isn’t. The subtle shift in balance might be like any other aid, and if the rider is too busy and providing the horse with unclear communication in general, the crest release aid might then become ineffective for that rider… Hypothetically.
So that’s why my horse keeps falling over when we halt…physics!
