Hunters - What Are They REALLY All About?

[Pipkin]

Haha, just clicked on this because I thought it was actual hunting, and I have a horse who is just the stamp of a true hunter (irish draught x connemara x tb) but he would be awful at ‘Hunters’ - he’s far too over-enthusiastic!

From a bit of googling, the stamp seems to be a metronomic, calm horse, who keeps a good rhythm into a jump, and makes a nice shape. Scope seems less important than style, because to me the jumps seem small.

I know nothing about this class though so can’t advise at all. Would be interested to read more about it, because although it’s not something we have in this country, I reckon I would enjoy it. You see some appalling riding in the showjumping ring here, lots of kicking and smacking, even up to about 1m30!! And it’s all about the height, rather than whether the horse can do a fluent/comfortable round.

[GoneAway]

Pipkin,
US and UK ideals of show “hunters”/hacks is very different. It’s fun to compare the two, though. The North American version of the show hunter is a real art form, but hyper emphasizes the good traits of a field hunter. Between US and UK hunters, I’d probably pick the UK hunter to go hunting on. Not every great US show hunter would make a good field hunter (and I doubt anyone would let their $650,000 4’ horse go out fox hunting), but I did have a very nice Hanoverian gelding who (as an accomplished show hunter at the big shows) also was a dream in the hunt field.

Your post reminds me of when I rode an RID gelding at a big Irish Draught show here in the States. We were doing the Working Hunters, and the judge was an American show hunter judge. So imagine my dilemma when I’m sitting on a very, very nice UK-style hunter, but having to show in front of an American hunter judge. After some debate, I ended up riding him much more up in the bridle rather than trying to make him look like US show hunter type (that experiment didn’t work out well in the warm up ring). The horse just went better his way, even if it cost us a ribbon. Still a fun experience though.

[chunky_munky]

Here’s one for you. In a hunter under saddle, should a poor moving, half broke ( use whatever term you want) rapid paced (etc) horse win a higher prize than the lovely moving performing animal that picked up one step of the wrong lead and immediately corrected it, continuing on with a beautiful canter? Looking forward to this discussion.

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=goodlife;7201280]
In the hunter ring, you need to be forgiving, subtle, soft, but effective. In my opinion, that’s a good indication of good horsemanship. Can you get the job done effectively, all while looking like you’re just out for an afternoon tea on horseback? Can you get the best out of every horse, meaning a big, correct, explosive jump every time out, while never changing your pace?

I’m not denying that there are some people out there that rely on chemical intervention and a whole lot of longeing to get their desired result, but laying down a great hunter trip a) isn’t easy and b) in my opinion, shows off a great deal of good horsemanship.[/QUOTE]

Love this GoodLife. Having just watched several AO Jumper riders in our barn TRY to do the AO Hunters on their horses that seem more appropriate as hunters, this perfectly answers the complaint that us hunter riders “just sit there”. LOL

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=equisusan;7201410]
Love this GoodLife. Having just watched several AO Jumper riders in our barn TRY to do the AO Hunters on their horses that seem more appropriate as hunters, this perfectly answers the complaint that us hunter riders “just sit there”. LOL[/QUOTE]

I have never judged anything more than a local show, but when I see an obvious error on a nice mover they get an automatic 55.

I don’t care how fancy it is, the #1 thing the horse needs to do is Execute The Requirements. Do a proper canter depart, please, on the first try, or you don’t deserve to beat everyone else who did.

Then again, if a horse is truly “rapid paced” that is a fundamental error in pace control and rideability as well, and that probably lasts longer than a split second and persists throughout the ride.

But yes I have indeed pinned very stylish ponies who bungled a lead over more serviceable animals that performed a very correct trip.

[chunky_munky]

I think you used the wrong quote in your post. Your last line is referring to “trips”. My question is regarding the under saddle.

[GoneAway]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7201406]
Here’s one for you. In a hunter under saddle, should a poor moving, half broke ( use whatever term you want) rapid paced (etc) horse win a higher prize than the lovely moving performing animal that picked up one step of the wrong lead and immediately corrected it, continuing on with a beautiful canter? Looking forward to this discussion.[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, no, especially not if it’s the more broke, well-mannered one. The idea of the hack and over fences classes is to pin the horse that’s most pleasant to ride. So if the great moving, well-mannered horse had its error immediately corrected and continued with an otherwise very correct, pleasant hack, it should pin above the badly moving, not as broke one. Now if there’s a decent moving, very rideable/pleasant horse that did execute everything correctly, then it should place above both the horses you mentioned.

The error on the part of the nice horse/rider combo would have to be obvious for the animal to pin below a much lower quality/less rideable one. ONE step of wrong lead, immediately corrected, in an otherwise great hack does not constitute glaring error in my book. Cantering around on the wrong lead, bucking, kicking out, etc…now those would/should cost a nice horse a ribbon. But I’m also not a USEF judge, so what do I know.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7201448]
I think you used the wrong quote in your post. Your last line is referring to “trips”. My question is regarding the under saddle.[/QUOTE]

Does it make a difference?
In the under saddle each horse has the same number of opportunities to demonstrate correct transitions. If one horse demonstrates fewer correct transitions than the others why should it pin over horses that demonstrate clean transitions?

Do a proper canter depart, please, on the first try.

(Which again does not mean that a horse which spends 15 minutes demonstrating lack of pace control or relaxation is going to pin over another one that had just a momentary error. But a serviceable, obedient horse that does everything right will pin over the stylish one with an error, yes.)

[chunky_munky]

Point: Should picking up the wrong lead for a step ( not all that uncommon with seasoned show horses that hear canter, and start on their own thinking they are doing the right thing) be considered a major error?

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7201466]
Point: Should picking up the wrong lead for a step ( not all that uncommon with seasoned show horses that hear canter, and start on their own thinking they are doing the right thing) be considered a major error?[/QUOTE]

In my book, yes.

On a well trained horse, a capable rider should be able to pick up whatever lead is called out to them in an instant, whether someone calls out for the counter lead while they happen to be walking a 10m circle or not. You should be able to put a $100 bill on a fence post and bet a blindfolded person who is tasked with calling out leads at random that your horse will nail it every time. If your horse gets it wrong they keep the Benjamin.

Basic control over what the horse’s legs are doing/obedience to the rider’s aids, and all that. It is something that you can easily prepare and train. Why leave points on the table for trainable, preventable stuff? Not everyone can be on the fanciest horse but everyone CAN install a rock solid canter transition.

I once watch Jen Alfano scolding her riders for entering the arena with their reins twisted. Her point was that not everyone can have the longest leg or have as much opportunity to lesson as everyone else or have as nice a horse as the next person but everyone can d*mn well look down and make sure they are holding the reins straight. Ditto canter departs.

[2bayboys]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7201466]
Point: Should picking up the wrong lead for a step ( not all that uncommon with seasoned show horses that hear canter, and start on their own thinking they are doing the right thing) be considered a major error?[/QUOTE]

I think no. The quality horse should win over the lesser quality, even if the quality horse makes a minor error. It’s not an equitation class, where the error would be counted more heavily against the rider.

And while a “pleasant” ride is nice, the hack class in a hunter division is above all about the best mover, highest quality animal.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=2bayboys;7201481]
I think no. The quality horse should win over the lesser quality, even if the quality horse makes a minor error. It’s not an equitation class, where the error would be counted more heavily against the rider.

And while a “pleasant” ride is nice, the hack class in a hunter division is above all about the best mover, highest quality animal.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[Trixie]

I’m just saying that by politics I mean going to a show and watching a flat class happen. A rider, whose trainer is a fairly BNT, messing up their leads completely yet winning the hack class. This same horse was first in the jumping rounds. It was quite obvious of the mistake in the ring, yet the rider still placed. I just have seen this types of situations happen all the time.

Was it a recognized judge? A decent one? A real horse show? Did the horse actually make mistakes over fences? What was the competition like? Where exactly have you seen these types of situations “all the time?”

I know you show in Virginia, and so do I. I’ve found that for the most part, I pin exactly where I’m supposed to, with one blatant exception where the judge mixed up my big bay horse with another big bay horse that didn’t actually finish the course.

Can you explain the principles of training that hunters represent compared to the horsemanship foundation?

To me the the “horsemanship foundation” is the entire spectrum of “classical methods” by which equestrians communicate with horses.

I really do not understand how a horse that has the straightness, pace control, balance, self-carriage, seamless lead change and style which form the principles of the hunter discipline could somehow be inherently lacking in basics.

I can promise you that my horse - who I occasionally show in the hunters - is the result of about ten years of work I’ve put into him. Flatwork, work over fences, dressage to the extent that he can do it (he has kissing spines). Transitions. Etc.

There is absolutely no freaking way he taught himself how to jump tidily around a hunter course to the extent necessary to pin at an “A” show due to no proper training on my part and without extensive lessons. He’s got the best heart in the world, but that doesn’t translate to “he automatically goes straight and round, paces himself, makes the strides, and gets every lead change.”

And while we’re at it? We get to do all that without looking like we’re making a single adjustment, pretending to just sit there and be flawless. Hell, I’m honored to sit on a horse that lets me sit there and be still - and I can count on probably one hand the amount of times I’ve been permitted to do that in the last decade or so. And? Sitting still is HARD!

[goodlife]

I’m not a judge so I don’t really have a qualified opinion to share on the debate, but rather just my experience, which was more along the lines of what Meupatdoes describes. I remember showing for 2 weeks out of a show circuit and doing 4 hacks (two were A/Os, two were high performance, AA show, if it makes a difference).

My horse moves well and was the hack winner in three out of the four classes, but was 6th out of 6 in the other, as we had picked up the wrong lead as we were directly across from the judge. I changed it quickly, but there was no hiding that one. I have no comment as to whether or not that was the correct or deserved placing, but that’s how it went for me.

[Trixie]

My horse moves well and was the hack winner in three out of the four classes, but was 6th out of 6 in the other, as we had picked up the wrong lead as we were directly across from the judge. I changed it quickly, but there was no hiding that one. I have no comment as to whether or not that was the correct or deserved placing, but that’s how it went for me.

It’s still subjective. You’re paying for the judge’s opinion on any given day in any given class.

I was riding my pony in a class once and she looked a bit hard at a hay bale on a jump in front of the judge. No huge spook or anything, just a slight swerve and a hard look. We were last in spite of her being the better mover over at least one of the other horses in the class (didn’t really watch the third horse, and there were only three). The judge told me later that she was foot perfect except for that one thing, and well, it was a pleasure class and a pony’s job is to pack, not spook. True enough!

[Ceylon_Star]

The other person is NOT a friend, she’s the older (in her late 30s/early 40s) sister of my previous barn owner. The PBO is also on the bandwagon (only since leaving that barn) that I’m going to cripple my horse because he doesn’t go around with his nose cranked to his chest and flinging his front legs everywhere -rolls eyes- Older sister is supposedly an “accomplished eventer and jumper” and PBO is supposedly a high-level dressage rider, but I have never seen anything to prove those claims. That whole family turned out to be a bit nuts in the end, but there’s still a barn full of people who think the sun shines out their rear

Since someone brought up the hunter under saddle group, I notice two very distinct groups of HUS riders. The first group is made up of riders who compete in the hunter jumper ring and do the HUS flat classes that their series of shows offers. The second group consists of the quarter horse style HUS rider with the peanut rollers and 4-beat lope/canter. Note, this is just what I see locally, I’m not saying that’s how it is everywhere! The two judges who told me my pony is what they call a true hunter are from two different worlds, one from a fox hunting background and one from a western HUS background, but both people described him the same, which makes me think that both groups SHOULD be riding/moving the same, things have just evolved and diverted into these two distinct ways of going. But, as several people said, all sports have evolved to be different than they were originally created to be, so it’s to be expected.

On the topic of leads in the HUS ring, I find that judges here place horses who pick up the wrong lead but make a clean flying change higher than horses who fall into the canter or rush the trot and then leap up into canter. In the QH style HUS I’ve seen horses on the wrong lead, or even cross-cantering, place higher than horses who have too much forward.

I think I said this in a previous post, but I love that my coaches have the mentality that riders should be able to ride a good hunter round before going into the faster-paced, bigger jumps, and more complicated courses of the jumper ring. It makes watching the jumper classes a lot less scary! But a lot of riders around here think hunters are boring, so opt to do the jumpers before they’re ready, and the rides are messy, unbalanced, they’re jumped out of the tack, it’s not fun to watch. There ARE some nice riders, but the majority around here are in over their heads.

But the other person in the conversation (PBO’s sister) is really close-minded, rude, and self-absorbed. Sadly this mentality seems to be the norm around here too.

[goodlife]

[QUOTE=Trixie;7201513]
It’s still subjective. You’re paying for the judge’s opinion on any given day in any given class.

I was riding my pony in a class once and she looked a bit hard at a hay bale on a jump in front of the judge. No huge spook or anything, just a slight swerve and a hard look. We were last in spite of her being the better mover over at least one of the other horses in the class (didn’t really watch the third horse, and there were only three). The judge told me later that she was foot perfect except for that one thing, and well, it was a pleasure class and a pony’s job is to pack, not spook. True enough![/QUOTE]

Yes, definitely appreciate that I’m just paying for an opinion, although it was the same opinion both times within each week, generally the same group of horses over the two weeks, so it’s pretty safe to say that I was dinged pretty hard for picking up the wrong lead.

I’m not angry nor do I think my placing was undeserved, but just illustrating that although it’s nice when a judge overlooks an error on an otherwise nice moving horse in the hack, it doesn’t always happen.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=goodlife;7201501]
I’m not a judge so I don’t really have a qualified opinion to share on the debate, but rather just my experience, which was more along the lines of what Meupatdoes describes. I remember showing for 2 weeks out of a show circuit and doing 4 hacks (two were A/Os, two were high performance, AA show, if it makes a difference).

My horse moves well and was the hack winner in three out of the four classes, but was 6th out of 6 in the other, as we had picked up the wrong lead as we were directly across from the judge. I changed it quickly, but there was no hiding that one. I have no comment as to whether or not that was the correct or deserved placing, but that’s how it went for me.[/QUOTE]

I think it really depends on the competition. If a really nice horse has a bobble in a class with other nice horse, well…that is going to affect the placings. If the really nice horse is head and shoulders above all the other entrants? It might not have as much affect.

I was recently showing my new mare who was being TERRIBLE (my fault 'cause I was pretty tense and uptight). The class was actually a number of nicely bred youngsters that will be headed to the A ring and were just getting some exposure. My mare was the nicest mover in the bunch but we picked up the wrong lead right in front of the judge. She was also trotting like a freight train…which I’m sure showed off her lovely trot, but it wasn’t relaxed in the slightest. I figured we were out of it. We got third. The judge either wasn’t looking when we go the wrong lead or forgave my for it because my horse was the best mover in the (small) bunch. Had there been other horses equal to her movement, I’m sure we wouldn’t have gotten a second look. That’s the way it is…and it’s why people do spend the money on the nicest horse they can afford…

[Trixie]

Yes, definitely appreciate that I’m just paying for an opinion, although it was the same opinion both times within each week, generally the same group of horses over the two weeks, so it’s pretty safe to say that I was dinged pretty hard for picking up the wrong lead.

I’m not angry nor do I think my placing was undeserved, but just illustrating that although it’s nice when a judge overlooks an error on an otherwise nice moving horse in the hack, it doesn’t always happen.

Exactly - some judges are going to say that the better moving horse will pin higher in spite of a small issue, others are going to say that the horse who meets the class requirements the best is going to win.

Likewise, it’s subjective to class. If we’re talking high performance hunter, a missed lead for one stride may knock you way back further than a novice or lower level class where safety is paramount.

[Prime_Time_Rider]

[QUOTE=copper1;7200676]
Things have morphed so far from the orgins that they are almost unrecognizable from what they started out-hunters, western pleasure, saddle breds, whole nine yards! Hunters started out as fox hunters and one guy said to another, “my horse is the best hunter in the field” and another guy said his was and they decided to have a competition and a third guy was the one to make the judgment and hunter shows began! The ideal is a horse that has the stride to cover the ground to keep up with hounds and that can safely and comfortably jump what is in front of him and that is still the basis of what we see in the show ring today. Yes, todays show horse would be hard put to keep up but he has to have the stride that if he were pushed he could
big difference on what a show hunter needs to do and what an event horse needs to. Questions asked are very different as well and your friend seems to be very snarky to cut down what you do. Ask her to get on your horse and lay down a winning hunter trip![/QUOTE]

Speaking as a show hunter rider who has recently dipped her toe into field hunting, it’s my observation that today’s show hunters are miles apart from what you actually encounter out in a field hunt. Yes, the ideal show hunter should have a smooth, ground covering efficient stride and pretty much jump what’s put in front of him and have good manners. That being said, I would challenge someone to select a dozen winning show hunters at random and see how they handle a day out field hunting. It would be interesting, to say the least.
Even hacking out, you need a horse that is balanced and can handle all types of terrain. I took my former show hunter out cubbing this past weekend, and we encountered hills, ditches, gates, cattle and cacti (this is Texas). My little mare is accustomed to hacking out and took eveything into stride other than objecting strongly to the herd of cattle plastered next to the gate we had to go through.
Imagine confronting some of our top show hunters with galloping out in the open, going up and down hills, through ditches, etc. I think many would be unrideable.
I enjoy riding show hunters but I agree that today’s show hunters bear very little resemblance with fox hunters. The hunter derbies have been a welcome addition to the show hunter sport and actually require some handiness and brillance. I do recall some major objections to the inclusion of a bank at a hunter derby last year at WEF. It is too bad that more show hunter riders don’t hack their horses outside an arena and expose them to real field hunter conditions. It’s great for the horses mentally as well as physically and horses quickly learn that they can’t go around on their forehands (ask me how I know this).

Ironically, many show hunter ridres are aghast at the idea of taking their bubble wrapped show hunters outside of the arena. I asked a fellow show hunter rider who rode with the hunt as a teenager if she wanted to join me and her reaction was “I don’t know if the trainer would allow her horse to go.” Another riding friend is simply afraid to ride her horse outside the arena.