Hypothetical - how would you price this horse?

[J-Lu]

Honestly, from my experience, wealthy Ammies who can afford FEI horses care less about the bloodlines as much as the show record and simply don’t want to be injured or killed by their horses. Many/most (?) of them purchase schoolmasters who are $$$$$ and schooled to death and sullen in their work. Not all.

The kid market might be lucrative but this horse is WAAAAAAAAAY above a pony clubber. That’s not the market. If ANYTHING, this would be a Jr. dressage horse. This horse is more advanced than the horses on your link. The $70K Hanoverian is a Holsteiner working at fourth with no current show record but was shown in the hunters (and seemingly failed out). But is shown in dressage tack.

Her gaits are better than this PRE.

She’s no slouch of a horse.

[Scribbler]

@J-Lu

Thanks, everyone!

@AnnaKarena92, As I recall, the Dutch line was very good (sire line) but I didn’t know much about the dam line. @Scribbler, I don’t think the horse ever went to a show. The owner doesn’t seem to have an interest in showing. I’ve seen the horse go in a clinic with the trainer riding and the horse looks solid PSG at least. crisp transitions, flying changes, decent pirouettes. I don’t think it would take much for this horse to actually go out and show, to be honest.

@Feathered_Feet, I’m not sure if she has papers or not-I think she does but I’m not sure about the registry. The age is around 11-12. I don’t know the age but the age is known. The AA isn’t timid, but she’s an older woman (retired) and I think maybe a third level rider (don’t quote me on that!).

@SusanO . Yes, in that clinic, I saw the horse do 3 and 4 tempis and work on twos. They tried ones but the horse was like “whaaaaaat?”. I know, without videos it’s really hard to estimate a price.

@Ambitious_Kate, the horse isn’t tall but she’s pretty filled out. Trainer rode while FL clinician used a whip to aid the hind end for piaffe and clinician was happy with the results.

@MadTrotter I’m pretty sure the horse can travel because when the trainer first developed her place, the owner used to trailer in for lessons. Now she leaves her horse next door to the trainer. I don’t know but assume she’ll PPE cleanly. I’m not sure if this horse has ever jumped but I honestly think it’s a waste of her talent and training to make her a pony club horse. No pony clubber can ride to the level that this horse goes at.

@CHT, I don’t know if the horse trail rides. She’s good enough for her retired Ammy owner to ride 2-3 x/week and enjoy the rides. I saw the horse go in a clinic with a FL clinician. She has nice gaits.

@BigMama1, She’s confirmed at Fourth at least.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!!! I’m pretty sure it the owner WANTED to sell the horse they’d take the horse out for scores. I’m pretty sure the horse would show well at PSG and maybe I1 with the trainer riding. Horse is solid in 3 and 4 tempis, pirouettes, flying changes, extended trot, etc. I think the trainer put all of that on.

Owner thinks 6 figures if she ever were to sell but I think that would be hard with her Arab breeding and height (MAYBE 16h but I think 15.3). That said, she does have a beautiful head thanks to the Arab influence. And mostly impossible without a show record at FEI. THAT said, I wonder how far uncut videos would go. While one never knows, I do think the horse has a decent shot at GP, if not I2. And she’s and Ammie-friendly horse to handle and ride. I’ve dealt with her many times and she’s pretty easy and well mannered.

If this sheds more light on the horse, I’d love to see revised opinions.

Thanks! This is a fun thought exercise for us all!

It’s sweet to let the elderly timid owner think she’s got a $100,000 horse, and until she tries to sell her there’s no actual proof she isn’t worth this. Horses are a wierd luxury object like art.

[J-Lu]

I suggest your characterization of the owner as an “elderly timid rider” in not correct. That vision in my head does not fit her at all.

I agree that horses are weird luxury objects like art.

[MadTrotter]

Ok then get a show record on the horse?

[CHT]

Interesting. I disagree. It is harder to put movements together for a test, than to put them together individually (in my opinion). In a test, particularly at higher levels, things come up quickly and aren’t necessarily in an order the horse likes. The show energy atmosphere is also different than a clinic or being at home. I would have trouble saying a horse is “confirmed” a level without the horse actually doing a test at that level and getting decent scores with some consistency, otherwise, to me, they are just schooling. To have never shown at age 11? It may go very well at a show, or it may have its mind blown by the show ring energy. But then, some people have no interest in showing…but I think that is a small market and a lower price point.

[dressagefjord807]

Can you consider a horse “Confirmed” without a show record?

If I had a nickel for every delusional person I’ve met claiming their horse is ready for PSG because it did a flying change by accident once over a cross rail. If someone’s selling a horse and they want to get the best price for it, then just send it to one rated show with a skilled trainer and pop out some decent scores.

[kpony]

I would love to find a horse just like this for 35-40k.

[atlatl]

@J-Lu

I suggest your characterization of the owner as an “elderly timid rider” in not correct. That vision in my head does not fit her at all.

I agree that horses are weird luxury objects like art.

Honestly, I was a tad put off by your comment

@J-Lu

typical AA riding maybe 3-4 levels below what the horse is schooling.

then I decided to be happy I wasn’t “typical” Pretty much all adjectives are in the eye of the beholder!

That said, on the West Coast there appears to be a pretty good market for 1/2 Arabs and there is at least 1 established and successful WB breeder I know who is breeding/showing them and doing pretty darn well.

I also know at least one very competent AA (silver medalist on her home trained horse) that has switched to a 1/2 Arab mainly because the horse was significantly more affordable than a comparable WB. I suspect the people with “WB money” are mostly interested in WBs. For whatever reason, people seem to either love or hate Arabs. Personally, I’m ambivalent (atypical again!).

I think the mare, as you describe her, out here could easily be a $50K horse to the right person, but likely less mainly due to age and apparent late of a show record.

[StB.YM]

@kpony

I would love to find a horse just like this for 35-40k.

If you’re (general you) are willing to look out of state, they usually pop up a couple times a year, here and there across the US. I window shop (don’t have time or the money for my own horse right now), and I do see horses like this come up for sale. Sometimes they sell quickly, sometimes they sit around for a couple months. My recommendation is to join a lot of FB groups. The quality you are looking for seem to be posted there first before being posted to dreamhorse or warmblood-sales a couple weeks later.

[netg]

I think the wide variety of prices is indicative of so much being up to interpretation.

A decent mover who is good away from home and can do an entire PSG test for a 65% or better is at least $50k for the most part.

If this horse is registered with a warmblood registry, I’d refer to her by that registry, not as half Arabian, so I’m guessing she isn’t. That would automatically make her price jump due to perception.

She’s not a 6 figure horse (IMO) until and unless she has a show record demonstrating at least high 60s capable with a pro or mid-60s with an amateur (honestly, it doesn’t even matter if the ammy is as good as many pros, those scores from an amateur are a factor in price point), and she shows a correct response to half halts, shifting balance into half steps and pirouettes in a way which indicates she has GP potential and isn’t stuck where she is.

The path to multiple 6 figures at 11 is an ability to score high 60s or higher with an ammy (competitive regionally, perhaps nationally) at PSG, excellent temperament, proven show record, AND demonstrated ability toward developing piaffe, passage, one tempis, and pirouettes.

[MadTrotter]

This is a good read, and even though more info was added by OP, we essentially have a small-ish “off” breed, older, no record, who hasn’t done much onsite and is only schooling PSG with a pro. As others have said, playing around in the sandbox at home with a pro is miles away from getting decent scores at a show, and with an ammie at that.

I want to say that I believe this horse is more appropriate for 99% of the ammie market than the 17h monster WBs that are typically marketed, and should therefore be “more valuable” but that’s not the world we live in.

[J-Lu]

I’m sorry that you were put off by my comment! I never want to say things that put people off!

[netg]

@MadTrotter

I want to say that I believe this horse is more appropriate for 99% of the ammie market than the 17h monster WBs that are typically marketed, and should therefore be “more valuable” but that’s not the world we live in.

So true!

And perception of an individual watching a horse school isn’t always in line with perception of an individual sitting in a judge’s box, which is why I gave numbers for scores.

Also, depending on the horse, scores can vary wildly. My 16.2-3 KWPN mare has scored 68-something with me in front of 3 different judges. (And ONLY 68-something, no variation.) I didn’t feel any of those rides were sufficient because of my desire to move up the levels, and loss of suppleness and quality from work at home. But it tells you she is the type of horse judges will like. My other mare has had incredibly huge variety in scores she has received. Judges who care about mechanics and ability to move up the levels inherently in their scoring, tended to put her at mid to high 60s when she did well, where judges who looked solely for the type of movement my other mare has would put reasonable rides in the low 50s. I think the largest disparity I had in a 2 judged ride was 12%.

If this horse shows a consistent tendency to score mid 60s or higher regardless of judge, price also goes up.

I agree that it should be the suitability for typical amateurs to ride which defines the value of a horse marketed toward amateurs, not the flash. Ironically, my fancy horse is the one who is also very amateur friendly - that rare unicorn, and her personality is why I bought her, not her looks or gaits which made her worth much more than I paid.

[J-Lu]

Thanks!!!

As a bit of a side, several have suggested 11-12 is “older” to be schooling at that level. For sure, the horse isn’t going to the Olympics. I knew a 9 year old “only” schooling I1 was considered “older” when a future Olympian took over the ride and campaigned it through GP for the Olympics. I also know a trainer who brought her QH/Friesian to GP by 9 and he was lame by 11. That is the case for MANY WB horses getting to GP under 10.

Why is an 11-12 year old pretty solid at PSG or I1 considered “older”?

Thanks in advance!

[J-Lu]

It’s not my horse. If she were, I certainly would be showing her for MY enjoyment. Her owner wants to have the horse go up the levels with the trainer to keep the horse ahead of her own skill set. That makes sense.

ETA: Horse is pretty solid at PSG with pro. See my above posts. Schooling I2.

[MadTrotter]

If the horse doesn’t have a show record, it’s “schooling” everything.

[atr]

I dont think that is “older.” But im not trying to monetize my breeding product.

I have a horse of similar breeding to the OP. He was competing PSG and I1 at 9/10. Hes very correctly conformed though his feet suck, and super smart and learns tricks very easily, like a lot or Arab/X horses do. It doesn’t mean that they are truly mentally or physically ready or able to perform the movements with true correctness however. I wish he’d had an extra couple of years to grow into the expectations of the level. I think he would have ended up a much happier horse.

[J-Lu]

Thanks, I appreciate your comments. But I kind of disagree.

I used to do clinics with a GP stallion trainer at a large breeding facility. The woman who brought him down owned an Iberian who stuck his tongue out as a habit. She didn’t show. He helped her ride to solid I1. I would not say she was “schooling” PSG or 4th. The horse was solid but had an unfortunate habit which is why she got him for a great price.

I’ve ridden with Janet Foy in clinics. Tom Poulin in clinics. Ellie Stine Masek in clinics. Carla Symader in clinics. They are more than capable of telling me the level that my horse is at by working with me for 50 min rather than giving me a score after a 10 minute ride.

IME, one doesn’t have to show to be confirmed at a level. Just my opinion. What do you think about the above?

[J-Lu]

Thanks!

This horse isn’t doing tricks. The horse is pretty correct. I’m sorry that your horse would have been happier with a couple of extra years to grow into the expectations of the level. It is so important for owners to advocate for their horse and the trainers to listed to that. This trainer listens to the horse.

[MadTrotter]

I think you seem very invested in what a bunch of strangers on the internet who have very little info to go off of think about a horse that is not yours.