Hypothetical - how would you price this horse?

[J-Lu]

Hi all,

OK, this particular horse is NOT NOT NOT for sale. People were just curious in today’s market and so was I. OF COURSE it is difficult to tell without seeing a video or knowing more about the horse, but we are just interested in a ballpark figure or range so I’m going to keep this pretty vague. And the horse is NOT for sale.

Horse is around 15.3hh, half Arabian, half Dutch warmblood mare, around 11-12 years old I think. Owned by an AA but in professional training. AA also rides the horse in lessons with trainer and I think she’s a typical AA riding maybe 3-4 levels below what the horse is schooling. Horse is schooling FEI and successfully schooling beginning piaffe and passage with trainer and the horse is correct. Is forward and sharp to the aids because the trainer really instills this. Is pretty relaxed and outside 24/7 on nice pasture with another mare with access to stalls, and is locked in during inclement weather. I don’t think has any special shoeing needs and is sound. Pleasant and easy to handle and blanket. No show record.

What is your ballpark price range for this horse? I know, I know, no video or conformation shots makes it difficult. I know! But what do you think based on the info I provided?

[outerbanks77]

Some show scores would make a big difference
I’d say 30k ish as is?

[AnnaKarena92]

Is she registered? Decent bloodlines? Schooling shows even? I’d probably go $15k to $20k. Maybe more if she us really nice moving.

[Scribbler]

What level does horse have scores at? It’s going to be quite different if all her scores are at Training or First versus if the trainer is showing her PSG.

You can teach a nice piaffe and passage to a horse who doesn’t have flying lead changes yet. For instance. Schooling select parts of FEI tests isn’t the same as having the whole package.

[Feathered_Feet]

No show record, so without video, anybody’s guess as to the quality of the horse and training.

Absent scores from a rated show (at any level), but assuming the training is decent and the horse is actually schooling all the PSG (clean reliable changes, pirouettes, pi/pa), I’d say $30k if you’re in the middle of nowhere, maybe $40k if you’re near a big/coastal city.

edit: mind you, this is not what I would pay, but what I think some other demographic might pay.

cons that detract from a higher price: the horse is small, half arab, no show record at all. But if she’s actually trained and quiet/easy enough for a timid AA to handle and ride, that goes a long way in somebody’s book.

[hoopoe]

Without show experience I would not go over 20,000. I want to know if the horse is good away from home. I want someone elses opinion on the completeness of the training.

[joiedevie99]

With a 65% at PSG with the trainer aboard, and safe enough for a 1st level ammy to learn, 75.

[SusanO]

I would say that beginning pi and pa really isn’t that much of a test. How are the changes? Does the horse have the ability and brain to be able to master tempi changes? Does the horse have enough brain to be able to put a test together, more so, can the horse put a test together at a show. Being able to do movements when the horse is relaxed and in a training situation is a whole lot different than delivering in a show. I think with no show record the price could be all over the place. It depends if a buyer wants to show or just ride movements at home. If it is registered half Arab that would increase the price I would think because that would open new opportunities to show. So I can’t even suggest a dollar amount.

[Scribbler]

@SusanO

I would say that beginning pi and pa really isn’t that much of a test. How are the changes? Does the horse have the ability and brain to be able to master tempi changes? Does the horse have enough brain to be able to put a test together, more so, can the horse put a test together at a show. Being able to do movements when the horse is relaxed and in a training situation is a whole lot different than delivering in a show. I think with no show record the price could be all over the place. It depends if a buyer wants to show or just ride movements at home. If it is registered half Arab that would increase the price I would think because that would open new opportunities to show. So I can’t even suggest a dollar amount.

Yeah except generally Arabs cost much less than WB these days, and if you want a half Arab for the breed circuit there’s a certain amount of choice in that world. Many straight up dressage riders don’t bother with breed shows even if their horse is eligible because it’s a different world and even different criteria. I grew up in a time when Arabians were the pinnacle of Super Fancy and relatively expensive, but I think Peak Arabian Moment is long past. They used to be what you’d breed anything to for a “nicer” foal, Arab x QH or TB or mustang or etc. Not so much these days, riding goals have changed.

[Ambitious_Kate]

Smaller horse and half Arab is a negative for me. As others said, it depends in scores and level shown successfully. Would have to be exceptional to be more than 20k. And how much more that PI ans pa does the horse do? Does the horse sit and track. Long strides and excellent slower pace. Many Arabs and smaller horses are too quick for me.

[MadTrotter]

Anywhere from 20 to 40K depending on how pretty and fancy she/her gaits are and also where you are geographically.

Even with no show record, can a timid ammie take her offsite for a clinic or a schooling show? Will she PPE cleanly?

Will she jump? This horse might be more valuable as a fancy pony club/jrs eventing prospect than as a small “off” breed dressage horse.

[CHT]

Can the horse trail ride? Is it too sharp to handle mistakes? I had a heck of a time trying to sell my sharp/light of the aids horses because people in my market aren’t used to riding a horse like that.

That said, not everyone wants to show, but the deeper pockets usually are the show crowd. Has the horse done clinics at least?

Another issue with no show record, are the gaits what the judges want? Arabians can be very easy to train to do the “tricks”, but can be hard to get the scores for gaits.

Really not enough information, but in my area, 11 years old, with no show record, would probably be under 20K as it would be an “unknown” unless it was super easy for an ammy to ride and have fun on outside of lessons.

[BigMama1]

Where I live at that age if it’s sound, safe, confirmed at Third / Fourth with ability to move up, that’s a $40-50k horse. Show scores and quality of gaits could make the price go up. If it’s not actually confirmed at Third / Fourth then price goes down somewhat, but not below $30k

[CHT]

Can you consider a horse “Confirmed” without a show record?

[J-Lu]

Thanks, everyone!

@AnnaKarena92, As I recall, the Dutch line was very good (sire line) but I didn’t know much about the dam line. @Scribbler, I don’t think the horse ever went to a show. The owner doesn’t seem to have an interest in showing. I’ve seen the horse go in a clinic with the trainer riding and the horse looks solid PSG at least. crisp transitions, flying changes, decent pirouettes. I don’t think it would take much for this horse to actually go out and show, to be honest.

@Feathered_Feet, I’m not sure if she has papers or not-I think she does but I’m not sure about the registry. The age is around 11-12. I don’t know the age but the age is known. The AA isn’t timid, but she’s an older woman (retired) and I think maybe a third level rider (don’t quote me on that!).

@SusanO . Yes, in that clinic, I saw the horse do 3 and 4 tempis and work on twos. They tried ones but the horse was like “whaaaaaat?”. I know, without videos it’s really hard to estimate a price.

@Ambitious_Kate, the horse isn’t tall but she’s pretty filled out. Trainer rode while FL clinician used a whip to aid the hind end for piaffe and clinician was happy with the results.

@MadTrotter I’m pretty sure the horse can travel because when the trainer first developed her place, the owner used to trailer in for lessons. Now she leaves her horse next door to the trainer. I don’t know but assume she’ll PPE cleanly. I’m not sure if this horse has ever jumped but I honestly think it’s a waste of her talent and training to make her a pony club horse. No pony clubber can ride to the level that this horse goes at.

@CHT, I don’t know if the horse trail rides. She’s good enough for her retired Ammy owner to ride 2-3 x/week and enjoy the rides. I saw the horse go in a clinic with a FL clinician. She has nice gaits.

@BigMama1, She’s confirmed at Fourth at least.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!!! I’m pretty sure it the owner WANTED to sell the horse they’d take the horse out for scores. I’m pretty sure the horse would show well at PSG and maybe I1 with the trainer riding. Horse is solid in 3 and 4 tempis, pirouettes, flying changes, extended trot, etc. I think the trainer put all of that on.

Owner thinks 6 figures if she ever were to sell but I think that would be hard with her Arab breeding and height (MAYBE 16h but I think 15.3). That said, she does have a beautiful head thanks to the Arab influence. And mostly impossible without a show record at FEI. THAT said, I wonder how far uncut videos would go. While one never knows, I do think the horse has a decent shot at GP, if not I2. And she’s and Ammie-friendly horse to handle and ride. I’ve dealt with her many times and she’s pretty easy and well mannered.

If this sheds more light on the horse, I’d love to see revised opinions.

Thanks! This is a fun thought exercise for us all!

[CHT]

Having travelled helps, but I do think that without a show record, the market would be smaller: she would be more a “diamond in the rough”. Not sure how a horse is “confirmed” without showing. So I now think $20-40k, but with considerable time and networking to sell. If they actually wanted to sell the horse, spending the money to take it to a show and get a presale vet check would be worthwhile and could double the value.

[MadTrotter]

I’m know it’s rough to hear market values when someone assumes six figures but dressage is already niche at low levels. The kind of people who are buying a PSG horse are either well-heeled ammies who want the status of elite bloodlines or a pro who will usually buy younger bloodstock.

It may be a “waste” of training to market such a horse for kids or ammie eventing but those are much more lucrative markets.

Here is a link to horses training at 4th level for sale. You can get a registered warmblood or PRE for a lot less than 100k.

[BigMama1]

@CHT

Can you consider a horse “Confirmed” without a show record?

I would if there’s video showing the movements done correctly with the appropriate engagement, self- carriage, collection, etc.

We’ve had several imports from Spain come through the barn where I board as sales prospects. None of them have show records but with good video of them demonstrating the level advertised, they generate a ton of interest and sell very quickly.

A show record isn’t a deal breaker for me personally (although it’s a nice bonus). A good video dictates whether or not I’d want to see it in person, and a test ride or two by me and my trainer would be the deciding factor.

[BigMama1]

@J-Lu

Owner thinks 6 figures if she ever were to sell but I think that would be hard with her Arab breeding and height (MAYBE 16h but I think 15.3). That said, she does have a beautiful head thanks to the Arab influence. And mostly impossible without a show record at FEI.

With several good scores at PSG / I1 and if this horse is safe and uncomplicated for an amateur to ride, clinic, show hack, etc. 6 figures doesn’t seem too far out of the question, even for an off breed. Prices for ammy-friendly FEI horses are ridiculous ATM

[StB.YM]

I’ve seen horses that match that general description, maybe a little older, with show records up to PSG listed in the 40-60k range. But they were marketed as schoolmasters and sat for a while before selling.