Hypothetical: Would This TB Stallion be of Interest to Sporthorse Breeders?

[skydy]

I came across this (surprisingly) handsome son of Dynaformer. Hardly a roaring success at producing racehorses.
Interesting breeding. https://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-…/132380/mr-big

Would anyone like to comment on his pedigree and type? Of course some Dynaformers are difficult but surely not all of them… His race stats, pedigree, and photo are in the link.

Disregarding the fact that no one would actually do this for many reasons the live cover aspect etc… (this is, as I mentioned, purely hypothetical) what would you think of him? I like him.

[EventerAJ]

It’s a very nice pedigree for sport. While Dynaformer himself was nasty, I haven’t encountered that temperament in his offspring. He (and sire Roberto) are well represented in US steeplechasing. And Fappiano damsire? Love that.

I do think $6k stud fee is quite high for a CA stallion who earned only $70k racing in allowance company. Mr Big has sired one stakes horse, the rest claimers out of small foal crops. None have been offered at the sales in the last 2 yrs.

I think he’d be more commercial as a sport sire than racing, personally.

[skydy]

That is my opinion as well. He seems to be a better prospect for sport than for racing. I suppose we’ll never know unless his connections or their friends are interested in chasers or eventing and have some nice sport mares to put to him. I suppose that is rather far fetched…

He is a handsome guy and not your typical Dynaformer. I wonder what his dam looks like.

[anon6923113]

Here’s his 5 generation pedigree. Linebred to Nashua 4x5. Dam was linebred to Native Dancer. He has Tom Fool in 5th generation via the dam.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+big2

Im curious about Nashua’s value in sport horse breeding… Any obvious examples of him being good? I went ahead and broke out his 5 generation pedigree too… Just for fun.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/nashua

[skydy]

I’d be looking a little closer up in the pedigree if I was considering taking a chance on his worth as a sport horse sire.
TB’s do tend to be line bred.
Of course the (hypothetical) mare’s breeding would compliment the stallion’s,when chosen by any thoughtful breeder.

[skydy]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Here’s his 5 generation pedigree. Linebred to Nashua 4x5. Dam was linebred to Native Dancer. He has Tom Fool in 5th generation via the dam.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+big2

Im curious about Nashua’s value in sport horse breeding… Any obvious examples of him being good? I went ahead and broke out his 5 generation pedigree too… Just for fun.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/nashua

I meant to quote you when I responded last post.

I did look at his pedigree and didn’t see anything that jumped out as a cause for concern. Our hypothetical mare would most likely be an outcross if TB, or a Warmblood.
It has been a long time now since American TB’s have been bred (to each other) for sport, other than racing on dirt or poly.

It’s nice to see a handsome well put together race bred TB with an interesting pedigree, which is why this guy caught my eye. Obviously not a “successful” racehorse but, oh my, some that are successful sires have shocking conformation and very short careers. You never know, but when breeding any animal I’d rather start out with decent structure.

[anon6923113]

@skydy - I don’t mention the linebreeding because it’s a cause for concern… most TBs are linebred, multiple ways. I only mention because that particular horse’s influence in the pedigree is going to be amplified.

So even if Nashua isn’t in the first three generations, given that the stallion is linebred 4sx5d to Nashua, it’s probably worth studying him in particular a bit closer. Just my opinion. Also, given that the stallion’s dam was linebred 4x4 on Native Dancer, that’s another influence to consider. In addition to the names in the first three generations.

Looks like he has decent confirmation, and some positive things in his pedigree for sport.

I’m genuinely curious if Nashua line horses have done well in sport - he’s a neat older TB name. I can’t remember reading much about him as a racehorse other than the rivalry with Swaps.

[Texarkana]

Mr. Big used to stand in Kentucky, and cheaply-- I think $1000 or $2000? He was at a small, private farm; not one of the major stallion stations.

His first crop was just 2 horses, but one earned a good bit of money on the competitive SoCal circuit. Then he got a graded stakes placed filly in his next crop, then a starter in the Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf. That’s about the time he moved to California and his fee went up considerably. In his first year in CA, he covered 39 mares, which is huge compared to the single digits he was getting in KY.

I just say this because while he may look like one of those struggling stallions on paper, he has actually improved his digs from where he started. His owners may not be so quick to embrace the sport world.

[Pronzini]

Mr Big is getting some significant buzz in California because of that BC starter coming out of a crop numbering only a small handful of foals. That fee might be a little aspirational but I’d be very surprised if they aren’t getting at least $4000and/or turning down mares. EA Ranch is a pretty established Thoroughbred racing farm down the road from what used to be Golden Eagle. I’d also be surprised if a sporthorse breeder could get to him now. They intend to play in the big racing leagues with this horse.

[skydy]

Thanks for the information. It will be interesting to see how he does with a bigger crop.

[LaurieB]

Here’s an article that gives some background on the Mr. Big. He is owned by the man who raced him, and who has also bred the majority of his foals thusfar. Krikorian has some nice mares and he’s going to give the horse every chance to succeed at stud (as a racehorse sire).

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac…n-transylvania

[skydy]

Thanks LaurieB.

That’s a nice story. I liked his pedigree and his conformation (nice to see those big Dynaformer feet).

I can see now why his owner had faith in him and why he wants to keep breeding him to get runners.

I hope he continues to do well.

Guess he won’t be the one for the hypothetical sport mare!

[beowulf]

Personally, I would say not really from sport-horse perspective. I’m sure he is plenty interesting to the race world.

I wonder if he is as big as Dynaformer given the name… Dynaformer was huge.

It would really depend on how well he moves… no matter how good he looks on paper if he does not move well, a mare owner with a good mare might not consider him. Roberto was a good mover, as are most direct Hail To Reason horses – I am a big fan of Hail To Reason and Turn To, personally and I think Roberto was HTR’s best moving son, easily, for sport… but I’d prefer to see him through Kris S as I think from an eventing standpoint he has more success.

The other thing to consider is what the mare owner needs; athleticism? Refinement? Jumping ability? IMHO I would sooner go with a horse proven to contribute that over an unknown. Dynaformer is not a branch I would consider for refinement - athleticism, yes - jumping ability, yes.

[skydy]

@beowulf

Personally, I would say not really from sport-horse perspective. I’m sure he is plenty interesting to the race world.

I wonder if he is as big as Dynaformer given the name… Dynaformer was huge.

It would really depend on how well he moves… no matter how good he looks on paper if he does not move well, a mare owner with a good mare might not consider him. Roberto was a good mover, as are most direct Hail To Reason horses – I am a big fan of Hail To Reason and Turn To, personally and I think Roberto was HTR’s best moving son, easily, for sport… but I’d prefer to see him through Kris S as I think from an eventing standpoint he has more success.

The other thing to consider is what the mare owner needs; athleticism? Refinement? Jumping ability? IMHO I would sooner go with a horse proven to contribute that over an unknown. Dynaformer is not a branch I would consider for refinement - athleticism, yes - jumping ability, yes.

You make some excellent points to consider, many of which made the situation hypothetical.

Dynaformer was 17.1h yes? I believe Mr. Big is described as being 17.2h in his adverts.

I agree that no one would look to Dynaformer to refine a mare, that’s for sure, thus my interest in seeing a photo of Mr. Big’s dam. He’s not “refined” but he is handsome and it would be interesting to see the combination that produced a really good looking Dynaformer (as good looking is not Dynaformer’s claim to fame).

Mr. Big’s damsire was handsome, but I can’t find a photo of his dam or 2nd dam.

[findeight]

No pedigree expert but find his tail female interesting coming from IRE and France. Typically those tend to be good on the turf and those, in turn, make good sport horses and many experts do look at tail female as a great predictor of future offspring.

Mostly meaningless but I had an own grandson of Nashua as a show Hunter back in tne early 90s, Appendix yet. He was my first 3’ horse at the age of 23-4, him, not me. Had a career as a Junior Hunter in the Midwest into his late teens but originally came off the QH tracks repurposed as a Jumper in Ok. He was pretty good at both, not so much at the track but was tattooed so he did start… Opinionated but honest and, obviously, basically healthy.

Have heard the other Nashuas, close up, were not for everybody but trained up well when properly handled and were very heavy in the work ethic department and preferred to work, not stand and be fussed over. That describes my old guy to a tee.

Equally almost meaningless is the fact my current retired TB mare, who was a very nice Hunter, has a relative who popped up in Nashuas pedigree, well back from today, Mumtaz Mahal through my mares grandsire Axe II (Fr). Axe went back to France after racing and standing here, as I understand it, he covered sporthorses too. For sure his son, my mares sire, returned to France and was advertised as a sport horse sire. I found the ads.

I don’t like going way back and inferring anything and TBs aren’t that big a gene pool but…interesting there’s hint of sport horse with Nashua.

Whoever thought this stud would be hard to get to as a sporthorse sire is probably right but it’s something you might want to look for in others.

[vineyridge]

Whether he ever stands to sport horses, he’s got one heck of a lot of good international steeplechasing blood running through his veins. To my thinking it would almost impossible for him not to pass on the jump gene if the dam has any of the good TB jumping lines. On the other hand, his topside is notable for not being very tuned in to humans and lacking in “submission”, so I would wonder about rideability. The HTR temperament has passed down through every generation in this horse’s sire line. Even mares and geldings have their own minds and aren’t very good at partnership.

It’s one thing to train a horse to race; it’s quite another kettle of fish to train a sport horse in any discipline, and the Robertos haven’t flooded the sport horse world a couple of generations after his death, even though they do have the jump genes in spades.

The Fappiano line, at least to me, has very good brains for eventing; they are problem solvers and they are brave, at least the ones that I’ve known have been. Whether they are for the average rider is going to depend on how meticulously they have been started.

[skydy]

Thank you for the discussion and the opinions.
It is generous of you all to indulge me in my hypothetical.

I hope that Mr. Big succeeds as a stallion.

I can see why his owner had faith and I hope that he will be pleased if he ever finds out that his horse has been admired not only by TB race horse admirers, but by some (admittedly random) sport horse enthusiasts.

[gumtree]

Beautiful horse. Love the pedigree for Eventing, sport in general. Top and bottom lines. Not sure where Viney draws her/his opinions from as far as;

“On the other hand, his topside is notable for not being very tuned in to humans and lacking in “submission”, so I would wonder about rideability. The HTR temperament has passed down through every generation in this horse’s sire line. Even mares and geldings have their own minds and aren’t very good at partnership”

I have owned and worked directly with several Dynaformers, on the ground and on their back. Not always the easiest of horses but certainly not the exception either. Good horse generally are NOT always “easy”, Not just my opinion but that of many in both sport and racing.

“Have heard the other Nashuas, close up, were not for everybody” Those of us in the TB breeding would would not consider Nashua to be “close up”. There is a touch of blood their in our opinion. His last crop of yearlings was over 40 years ago. A bit of trivia, Nashua was the first horse to be “syndicated” by the late great Leslie Combs II that man that started and owned Spendthrift Farm. The farm still exist but in name only. Nashua was bough by the Syndicate out of his breeder’s Belair Stud Md, (William Woodward Jr) dispersal sale for $1,251,200! That would be

Beowulf “Roberto was a good mover” Is this opinion based on seeing him in person? I agree. I saw him a number of times at Darby Dan, IMO he was a very nice mover running around his paddock and very attractive “type” standing up when inspected. He died in 88 just short of 30.

The Dynaformers I worked with and or was around quite a bit were very nice movers. The one I had could jump the moon, got stronger with every mile he was galloped. I trained him for steeplechase, Timber and my sport horse friends several "names, Event and H/J, Grand Prix trainers gave me a lot of “stick” for “wasting” his talent running him over jumps, lol.

As far as breeding to him for sport at $6,000 well, that’s taking more of chance than breeding to him for racing. On the racing side he has come up with some pretty nice horse from his really small crops. 5 crops, 16 foals of racing age, Two 2 year olds. Based on those REALLY small numbers and the results his book of mare sky rocketed in 2016 when he was bred to 39 and was bred to more than 50+ this year.

Advertised stud fee is one thing, what breeders are actually paying is another. But I doubt one could be had for say $1-2,000 right now. In 2015 I would bet a season could have been had for a “ham sandwich”. Mr. Krikorian has been in racing for a long time. Nice enough guy and a “sporting” guy. He’s not standing this horse for the money, he has plenty. I would bet the majority of mares breed to him since going to stud in 2010 were owned by him. If just about anyone else in racing had owned this horse he would have been sold for a “ham sandwich” as a stallion prospect to the “hinterland” or another country. For racing or sport breeding.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

Gumtree, I love your comments and was wondering if I could confirm/dismiss a bias I have had since I was a teenager - that Fappiano’s are to be avoided on the basis of soundness issues. In my younger years I only had access to TBs and would always try to make note of the pedigrees of the ones that stood out either for good or bad reasons. I knew several Fappianos who were spectacular looking, gorgeous movers, nice in temperament and chronically unsound, usually on some lower-limb tendon issue. There’s a gorgeous Fappiano stallion in CA who apparently has produced a very successful eventer, so perhaps my bias is unfounded.

One of my other biases is that Dynaformers can do no wrong - huge, tough feet, though some are high/low (Mr. Big looks that way too). Not a horse who will nicker to greet you but not hateful, just a hardworking TB, brave, tough as nails, good judgement, reactive to aids but not spooky, does great in six days a week of real work. I love Dynaformers and seek them out. Dynaformers are “the super horse” in my mind, had several I worked with over the years that I just loved.

[beowulf]

@NSC Los Angeles

Gumtree, I love your comments and was wondering if I could confirm/dismiss a bias I have had since I was a teenager - that Fappiano’s are to be avoided on the basis of soundness issues. In my younger years I only had access to TBs and would always try to make note of the pedigrees of the ones that stood out either for good or bad reasons. I knew several Fappianos who were spectacular looking, gorgeous movers, nice in temperament and chronically unsound, usually on some lower-limb tendon issue. There’s a gorgeous Fappiano stallion in CA who apparently has produced a very successful eventer, so perhaps my bias is unfounded.

One of my other biases is that Dynaformers can do no wrong - huge, tough feet, though some are high/low (Mr. Big looks that way too). Not a horse who will nicker to greet you but not hateful, just a hardworking TB, brave, tough as nails, good judgement, reactive to aids but not spooky, does great in six days a week of real work. I love Dynaformers and seek them out. Dynaformers are “the super horse” in my mind, had several I worked with over the years that I just loved.

I know you asked Gumtree, but just my two cents (speaking strictly from sport perspective, not racing perspective).

I don’t think Fappiano is an inherently unsound line. A lot of them did very well on the track, and their soundness in a second career might impact that. You may have been dealing with the results of track jewelry, not an inherently unsound horse.

Fappiano is a known jump talent for eventers. If you poke around the 100% TB horses competing in the UL you’ll find many of them have Fappiano, usually tail male, though I argue he is even better damside for sport (not for racing). Fappiano has several sons that have proliferated steeple chasing as well… IMHO one of the best lines now is Broken Vow for eventing, beautiful, big movers and of course, excellent jumpers. You’ll also see Fappiano frequently paired with In Reality - that is generally a very good line for both soundness and jump talent.

I personally really like the Fappiano horses I’ve met. They usually have a huge shoulder, are wonderfully uphill in movement, good trot but their best thing is their canter and brain… it is all about their job which they tend to take very seriously. They’re wonderful partners XC, in my opinion.