"I really don't know where she is." UPDATE: anovulatory hemmorhagic follicle!

[pwynnnorman]

That is what I was told after having a mare preg checked at 18 days via ultrasound. She is NOT pregnant, but she is NOT in season. She has a large, “fuzzy” (I think that’s what I heard) CL…and that’s all I know, except that there’s no way to tell “where she is” for some reason.

What is going on?

Last time, I had a different mare with a 44cm, a pony mare, Us’ed at @20 days since she’d gone out last (I wanted 16-18 because, as I’d explained, she is super aggressive and so very difficult to tell when she’s in or out-but I got “I always wait until 20 or so,” period). At 44cm, the recommendation was to have semen shipped from CA to arrive the next day because there was “plenty of time.” We decided that, given the expense, there was NOT “plenty” of time enough. BUT it turned out the advice was correct. To edify myself, I had her Us’ed the next day…and she was still a 44cm. Is that a bit weird? Not even a single cm of change in 24+ hours?

I don’t know. I’ve kinda lost my confidence here. This is the 2nd “home” vet (in contrast to clinic vets I’ve also interacted with recently) that I’ve had communication problems with. Now, I know full well that ANYTHING is possible, but, by golly, don’t I at least deserve an explanation as to why a mare who should be pregnant (having been carefully charted and then live covered every other day until she went out) isn’t pregnant but ALSO isn’t in season–and a hussy of a mare at that?

Why don’t I ask? Because it is becoming increasing UNcomfortable to ask, that’s why. And then, too, I often don’t think of the right question (or, more often, the right way to ask it) in time to ask it because the way I get information, it is presented like, “Well, duh,” or “it’s just that simple” (not those words, but that’s the quick and casual way it seems to be relayed).

So can someone please tell me what a “fuzzy” CL is?

And, most importantly for future breeding plans, why would a mare who should either be pregnant or coming in season, a mare whom I’ve witnessed go through two perfectly normal, super-hussy cycles already, be neither??? Can mares get fallopian tube pregnancies like women? (Can’t remember what that’s called. Ec-somethingian…???)

[Molly_Malone]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Unco-operative Mares. Sounds like you have an AHF and/or a mare who’s hanging on for grim death.

Having just gone through exactly this, only with frozen semen, we waited 'til she ovulated. Gave the P&E shot and bred on the next cycle (which was still not textbook) with the help of Deslorelin.

Can’t help with uncommunicative vets though. I find email gives me time to compose myself better.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

I would guess an anovulatory hemmorhagic follicle, as well. I’m dealing with this in a mare of my own now, and while I wouldn’t call the CL “fuzzy”, they do look l a lot like a cob-web, so I could see that interpretation. If that is the case, that is a reason not to be pregnant. If that isn’t the case, then there are a lot of things to investigate; a culture/cytology, biopsy, confirming ovulation via ultrasound, checking for fluid, etc. are all rule-outs.

[YankeeLawyer]

It could be what my vet calls a trabeculated CL - not necessarily an AHF. They are webby in appearance also. Not a perfect cycle but they will not necessarily result in no pregnancy. I have one mare that always has webby CLs yet she always takes on one dose of frozen and has otherwise textbook pregnancies. We do use a regumate protocol when dealing with trabeculated CLs (I am sure others may disagree but it works for us).

Regarding your vet, I would not be shy about asking questions. I ask tons of questions and I am sure some are dopey but my vet is the one with specialized AI expertise, not me

[back_in_the_saddle]

What does CL stand for?

[Daventry]

@back in the saddle;5597692

What does CL stand for?

It stands for Corpus Luteum.

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=Daventry;5597708]
It stands for Corpus Luteum.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. My vet said CL but didn’t mention anything past that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_luteum

[pwynnnorman]

Interesting, what it could be, especially given that this is a leased mare. It seems by your comments that I really need to know, don’t I, one way or another? I can’t make plans with this mare otherwise, right? I mean, when will she come in season next? I had her vetted when she WAS in season, and she came back in very predictably, but I guess this condition is not predictable itself, no?

[pwynnnorman]

[QUOTE=Molly Malone;5597519]
Welcome to the wonderful world of Unco-operative Mares. Sounds like you have an AHF and/or a mare who’s hanging on for grim death.

Having just gone through exactly this, only with frozen semen, we waited 'til she ovulated. Gave the P&E shot and bred on the next cycle (which was still not textbook) with the help of Deslorelin.

Can’t help with uncommunicative vets though. I find email gives me time to compose myself better.[/QUOTE]

That’s was what I whined about last year, Molly. I wanted to do the P&E to cycle two mares together–and the answer was “that’s not what we support.” So I tried a different vet this year (sigh).

What is AHF?. We are planning to short cycle the 44 mare, but I have to find someone who’ll help me manage that. I feel pretty much left hanging right now.

BTW, I had a great experience doing frozen with a third mare this year–don’t know if she caught yet, but it was GREAT that I was sent home with this lovely little “to do” list with dates and explanations, etc. Whatever happened to vets who write things down like that? I remember now that this vet said cobwebby–not fuzzy–but my memory is just shot through with all the stuff I have to do. Where does one find a vet who writes stuff down?

[Bayhawk]

It’s been my experience that “some mares” get screwed up when you attempt to short cycle. Some mares respond beautifully.

If the mare has a CL , she appears to have ovulated and you are in between coming back in. Did I read this correctly ?

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;5597773]
That’s was what I whined about last year, Molly. I wanted to do the P&E to cycle two mares together–and the answer was “that’s not what we support.” So I tried a different vet this year (sigh).

What is AHF?. We are planning to short cycle the 44 mare, but I have to find someone who’ll help me manage that. I feel pretty much left hanging right now.

BTW, I had a great experience doing frozen with a third mare this year–don’t know if she caught yet, but it was GREAT that I was sent home with this lovely little “to do” list with dates and explanations, etc. Whatever happened to vets who write things down like that? I remember now that this vet said cobwebby–not fuzzy–but my memory is just shot through with all the stuff I have to do. Where does one find a vet who writes stuff down?[/QUOTE]

Here is a great article from Kathy’s site on AHFs (anovulatory hemmorhagic follicles): http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/AHF.shtml It may or may not be what you are dealing with; if it is they can be a real pain-in-the-rear.

[ladybugred]

I hate to sound stupid, but couldn’t you just TELL the vet you NEED it written down?? I do with all my vets(small animal & equine), and anyone else who gives me instructions, or tells me something that may need revisited.

Good luck with the mare

LBR

[pwynnnorman]

[QUOTE=ladybugred;5598283]
I hate to sound stupid, but couldn’t you just TELL the vet you NEED it written down?? I do with all my vets(small animal & equine), and anyone else who gives me instructions, or tells me something that may need revisited.

Good luck with the mare

LBR[/QUOTE]

Y’know, you are so right. I really need to assert myself. My communication problems are really no one’s fault but my own. Especially if I don’t even TRY to correct it. (Heck, and if a vet just said, no, then there shouldn’t be any hard feelings if I go elsewhere, right?).

You know what it is, though? What if I’m the only client who insists? For a couple of reasons some may not understand, I am very leery of being too pushy or bitchy in this biz–except online, of course ;). Still, I tend to tip toe around far more than I should, I think.

But as an update, I am getting a second opinion and seeing if I get along better with a female vet whom a friend has been using for years. She gave me an interesting, logical explanation about the cobby-webby CL, which it sounds like she has a lot of experience with. I really liked how she assessed the needs and timing of all three of the mares I’m dealing with. I’m encouraged by our conversation.

Truth be told, I need a “hand-holder” type of vet right now, given the state my life is in! Thanks all.

[Summerwood]

PWynn, nothing to add here except my own experience, in which I was having similar problems of really just not understanding what was going on. (and also had a mare hang onto a follicle that was never changing) So I did two things: I went to one of Kathy’s repro courses, which was wonderful. Not really going to be possible for you now that they don’t travel anymore but there is a wealth of info on her site and she is ready and so willing to help if you ask. (LOVE HER!)
The second thing I did was I found a repro specialist with a clinic. Before I went I asked her a million questions by phone AND e-mail. She was always more than pleasant, and happy to answer my questions without rushing me despite the fact I was not yet even a client. I brought my mares to her this past year and she not only saved me a ton of money but she got a mare in foal I was having lots of trouble with for three years. She took the time to explain everything to me and answer my questions, no matter how dumb they actually were. When you are the one shelling out the money the vet is working for you and should be willing to explain what is going on even if you have to place a call with a question you thought of after the fact. JMO.
ETA: Sounds like this new girl might be just the right fit? I hope for your sake she is, it is such a relief to actually have someone you have a good rapor with!!

[ladybugred]

I hope the new vet is a great fit!

I understand having a hard time speaking up for yourself, but who else will?

LBR

[paulamc]

Actually the situation with both of those mares is quite normal in my experience

Vets generally dont explain much at all, and many clients dont want an explanation, they just want to know is my mare in foal and if not why not

As to the first mare, it could by an anovulatory follicle but it may not be
I find that if i have given deslorelin as the ovulating drug, and the mare did not go in foal, the deslorelin actually stops them coming back into season for up to 3 weeks after they were due back in naturally, and that a PG has to be given for them to come back in sooner than this

And there is no such thing as the mare should be in foal even if she was served every day while in season. There are a million and one reasons why she didnt take, she could have had fluid, or it could just be biology and the law of averages

With the second mare, who had a 44 follicle, i would think that she could have ovulated anytime at all on that size, but one reason the follicle was the same size the next day could be that when the mare is close to ovulation, the follicle doesnt usually grow in size, it stays the same and can even get a bit smaller

Paulamc

[pwynnnorman]

Paulmc, I appreciate hearing of your experience–it really is the only way to get a feel for what is or is not “normal.” However, please note that I did not say she “should be pregnant” ONLY. I said she should be pregnant OR in season–one or the other. I’m hardly so green as to think that sex = pregnancy. Please note that she charted by the book through two cycles prior to this one and it is highly unlikely that she is still transitional down here in FL.

I must also disagree with you about vets not explaining. A breeder’s “regular” vet should, IMO, understand the circumstances/context of the breeder’s needs and preferences. This vet’s predecessor did “get” where I was coming from, even though we often disagreed as to where I should “go” or how I should get there.

These days, I think people want more from everyone, including their doctors and their vets. And I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation if the professional would like the client’s loyalty in return. During breeding season, even though I only have three or four mares per year, I often have a vet out weekly or more–sometimes much more. I have autopay set up with the clinic, I store two stallions’ semen with them, I’ve been with them for six years, and I am well known as NOT being a casual breeder (although I am far from being super adept at it!).

Still, with all of that, I do not deserve an explanation that would help me manage my mares better?

[It’s funny. In a way, your post set me off again when I thought I was over it! Truth be told, I am VERY short-tempered these days.]

Eh, whatever! I was planned to update this post today, but I had to reschedule the 2nd opinion vet (lovely lady, lots of conversation–maybe I just get along better with lady vets?) for today. Our tentative plan is to short cycle both mares after ultrasound to see what’s going on inside.

[pwynnnorman]

DING, DING, DING! We have several winners.

The one mare did/does indeed appear to have a anovulatory hemmorhagic follicle. I write “did/does” because she still had it yesterday!

And I discovered that, from now on, I am going to insist on the use of the speculum in addition to the ultrasound. That’s another HUMONGOUS lesson I’ve learned from this. The “quick and dirty” ultrasound simply doesn’t provide enough information. Y’know, I recall NOW how all of my previous repro vets have used the speculum–and several also palpate, too–so they get several types of data, instead of just one. I wish I had remembered that detail in the first stage of this experience. Had I, I would have asked the guy to do so, so I had more clarity on where things stood.

And it was odd because with the third mare, the frozen semen one, the vet did talk about the mare’s edema…but didn’t with the 44 mare. I feel like I should write down a checklist of the things I must know…er, ASK ABOUT, that is…when I feel lost in planning my breedings.

• follicle size
• CL consistency
• edema
• cervix condition/tone
• appearances
• what else?

Anyway, I am thrilled with the new vet. She PRINTS OUT INSTRUCTIONS and the bill, straight from her computer while you wait, and she even keeps her own, hand-written chart (its almost like a coded diary--really cool) on ALL of the mares she sees! Awesome! I have gone from feeling hopeless to feeling quite hopeful. Thank you, everyone, for the education.

[Summerwood]

Good for you PWynn, I can hear the relief in your post!! It makes things so less stressful when your vet respects the fact that getting the mares bred is a partnership and both parties need to be in the know.

[paulamc]

I am terribly sorry , i did not in any way mean to upset you or appear to be sticking up for vets

i totally agree that we expect more from everyone these days and rightly so

what vets often dont realise is that the more we, as mare owners and stud managers, actually understand the process, the more we can help things

i do all my own AI work and have done for 6 years now. i had absolutely dreadful results with vets over 12 years of breeding with frozen semen, and had to put up with being told the very bare minimum from my 3 different vets in that time

doing the work myself i can now see so much clearer of course, what is going on, and i also see how many times they made mistakes on my own mares, which of course i had to pay for

Am glad to see you have had a better result

Paulamc