Iberian fans

[lorilu]

Just a little rant.
I have Iberians. I love them. And I am so glad they are now more “respected” in the dressage arena.

But really, I have to ask, what is the problem with them regarding CONTACT???
My three experiences: FIrst, Lusitano, doesnt want you to touch is mouth AT ALL. He really likes a MikMar bit, flat on his tongue with rounded edges, broken with a roller in the middle. Its illegal of course.
Second Lusitano, leans down and rolls over his shoulders. third, an Andalusian, curls behind the bit . He is getting better. Of the other two, one is retired and the other is doing lower level now as he gets old.
Do they ALL go BTV? are they ALL so “light to the aids” its as if they arent holding the bit? Or pushed so strongly to the bit that they telescope their necks into their shoulders??

I am looking for a cute horse not to show up the levels, but to help me FINALLY learn about “real” contact. Maybe have a little fun. Im looking at videos and so far, ALL of them either hide from the bit, or the reins are just this side of floppy as the horse poses.

Just a rant.

.

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

what is the problem with them regarding CONTACT???

Maybe the problem is not with them, but with the riders who expect iberians to ride like warmbloods. Different breeds…different breed objectives…different riding traditions…totally different animals.

[CanteringCarrot]

It took a bit for my last PRE to go into the contact and put some weight in my hands, so to speak. It wasn’t impossible, but involved tact and time.

It’s actually cool to look at pictures of him over the years and seeing him get more comfortable and accepting of the bit.

Do they ALL do this? No. You can indeed learn about real contact on an Iberian. I get what you are saying though, and it is a tendency, but can be overcome. I do like and appreciate the lightness, but do understand it can be too light and many “hide” from the contact by going BTV. Since they’re so light, many think, oh, then I cannot touch their mouth or I must leave them alone, which isn’t the case.

While he did accept contact, it was still different from my WB that I had before him. Not in a bad way, or anything.

[CanteringCarrot]

@pluvinel

@lorilu

what is the problem with them regarding CONTACT???

Maybe the problem is not with them, but with the riders who expect iberians to ride like warmbloods. Different breeds…different breed objectives…different riding traditions…totally different animals.

This is something to consider too, I think.

Often, the problem is the rider

Horses are fairly adaptable… if we know how to show them the way.

[Mersidoats]

I own a WB and a PRE. They prefer different types of contact. The WB has a lower set neck, more upright shoulder and is happy to take a solid contact - she is less supple, more forward, and moves across her back. It is easier for her to be through. Her back is naturally stronger than the PRE’s back, she has equal push and carry in the hind leg. Her contact fault is that she sometimes expects me to carry her head. Which is remedied by rebalancing, half halting to a slower tempo, and shoulder mobility.

The PRE has a more upright neck, sloping shoulder and is a leg mover. He doesn’t need to take contact, because he can move along just fine without it. When he is doing his normal Iberian trot, I have no hope of contact - he ducks, he shortens, he drops. But when I ask him to really push from behind, and lift behind his withers, then he seeks the contact - for support, for balance in the forward movement. Some days it is stronger, some lighter, but it’s always about forward across the back first.

From both of these horses I’ve learned that contact is the end result of everything else you are doing. So if it’s not right, stop worrying about the hands and worry about the other body parts.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Mersidoats

From both of these horses I’ve learned that contact is the end result of everything else you are doing. So if it’s not right, stop worrying about the hands and worry about the other body parts

This!

[joiedevie99]

@Mersidoats

The PRE has a more upright neck, sloping shoulder and is a leg mover. He doesn’t need to take contact, because he can move along just fine without it. When he is doing his normal Iberian trot, I have no hope of contact - he ducks, he shortens, he drops. But when I ask him to really push from behind, and lift behind his withers, then he seeks the contact - for support, for balance in the forward movement. Some days it is stronger, some lighter, but it’s always about forward across the back first.

Agree. We spent nearly a year focusing on the push and the swing without the running and the flinging after buying my PRE. Honestly, he was more comfortable for the rider, and easier to steer through the tricks before we fixed the basics and taught him to use his body in the ways dressage demands. IMHO, Iberians are no easier to do correct dressage on - the challenges are just different, and what a rider is able to accomplish incorrectly looks different.

[mbdsea]

Seconded!

Mine took quite awhile to learn to move over his back and through his middle, laterally, and truly go to and through the contact. It’s our entire focus. He’ll default to happily go around NOT over his back, and it may look okay, but it’s not correct. I think this happens a lot with the Spanish horses.

Now that he’s moving more over his back and through his middle most of the time, his trot is more WB like and less Andalusian like. He’ll never have an 8 trot, but he does make up for it in canter and his ability to be rock solid in movements (once something is installed, it’s in the operating system and he’s got it - be it shoulder in, a change, whatever).

But yeah, they aren’t tricky in the sense that they are so agreeable and fairly easy to teach, but I find they can be tricky in learning how to really use their bodies and not just fake it and fling legs up and down.

[lorilu]

@joiedevie99

Agree. We spent nearly a year focusing on the push and the swing without the running and the flinging after buying my PRE. Honestly, he was more comfortable for the rider, and easier to steer through the tricks before we fixed the basics and taught him to use his body in the ways dressage demands. IMHO, Iberians are no easier to do correct dressage on - the challenges are just different, and what a rider is able to accomplish incorrectly looks different.

Yes, this is the path we are on . He WAS easier to ride before the basics got better. But that meant holding him up and shoving him around. He really relied on the rider for ALL his balance… there is imrovement! but what a long and frustrating road.

@mbdsea

but I find they can be tricky in learning how to really use their bodies and not just fake it and fling legs up and down.

YES!!

@Mersidoats

But when I ask him to really push from behind, and lift behind his withers, then he seeks the contact - for support, for balance in the forward movement. Some days it is stronger, some lighter, but it’s always about forward across the back first.

Yes. also my experience. But TEACHING them to do this when they come to you without the basics but WITH the tricks… and the tricks are easier so that is their default.

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah, it’s like they can “get by” just faking it or giving 80% as opposed to 100% and honestly, some people don’t pick up on that. I have one friend who would think that my PRE would be correct, but he wasn’t, it was “fake” for lack of a better term.

My current youngster has more inclination for power and extension naturally, at liberty, than my last one, so I’m curious to see what he will be like under saddle.

Interestingly, I thought my last one would be too backed off in the double bridle or be odd about the contact and more metal in his mouth, but he gave me a good feeling in it almost right away, so I found that interesting. I’m not sure if the communications were clearer to him in the double or what.

A lot of it was getting more power out of him. He had the ability to sit and do some good work, but at times needed more power and push. Which you do need to establish proper contact. So that was a hurdle we had to get over as well.

[lorilu]

So I have to ask… if I am looking for a horse to help me really understand contact… perhaps an Iberian is not what I should look for… then I can take lessons learned and “feel” learned back to riding the Iberian…?

[CanteringCarrot]

Perhaps.

While contact is contact, it still might feel different and be produced (or created) differently in an Iberian vs a Warmblood, for example/generalization. So I think that has to be considered as well.

[mbdsea]

Exactly! And I think some just take the 80%, teach the tricks (because they learn so, so fast), and call it good. I wanted to do it right, but it took patience and an excellent trainer - because a LOT of what we do is “boring old basics” (which I actually don’t find boring - I love nothing more than an awesome trot-canter transition - for real). I can and do see quite a few that are 7 or 8 and have a lot of tricks, but I can tell they aren’t really through and wiggly in the middle.

That’s interesting re the double - we are at third and almost everyone shows in a snaffle in my group even at FEI - but I’d be curious to try one on him around 4th or so to see what it’s like.

Mine definitely sits and gets better the harder a thing is, but I agree on the power/push issue. It’s like he’d already do a pirouette if you let him, but he needs to separate his hind legs and actually push while sitting rather than just sit down and turn. We are currently working on getting him to separate his hind legs and directing each step/leg. It’s not hard really - but requires quite a bit of thoughtful/mental riding.

[mbdsea]

Might not be a bad idea, honestly. I had warmbloods for years before my Andalusians. I would never go back to warmbloods now, but I do know what I’m after regarding contact. But I’m also okay with good but not great scores at the lower levels by not having a warmblood. I do think that most Spanish ones shine more as they move up.

[CanteringCarrot]

Yes, all of this. It definitely requires thoughtful and mental riding.

I first tried the double on him as we were preparing for the rough equivalent of 3rd level (we weren’t in the USA). We competed in the double a few times, but ultimately he could do it all in a snaffle or double, but some classes required a double. I rode him bitless a fair amount, mostly on hacks, and he did well with that too.

[Kyrabee]

Buy a youngster and start it yourself? Really…over the years, I have done that and been very pleased with the results vs getting an older started horse and trying to fix any pre-existing issues.
I have done it 4 times over my riding life.

I have a half Andalusian so I do know about their eagerness and their ability to learn…and the tension. I have had mouth issues with her and it seems to come down to her mouth conformation. I too have ended up finding her favorite bit(s) to not be legal.
Oh well, my body started breaking down several years ago and I have finally gotten back to riding but doubt I will get back to showing so I go with what she is the most comfortable with. Currently that is a Linda Tellington Jones roller bit and my “bastard” double bridle…a bitless bridle for the snaffle and a standard Weymouth for the curb. I used to ride her in a PeeWee bit but in the last year, she has decided that isn’t kosher any more. It can be super frustrating but I love her personality and her ridability (gaits…I am a stiff old lady that can’t handle a lot of movement).

Have you tried a bitless bridle to see if you can establish better connection without the bit? If that helps you can later add the snaffle back over the bitless and see if you can continue a more solid contact.

Just throwing some things out there.

Susan

[iberianfan]

Really good information here. I do think that, in Spain, Portugal, Brazil, the riders are not necessarily dressage people. They don’t think “relaxation, rhythm” first. They use the natural tendencies of the horses: a round profile, ability to piaffe and passage, to teach the horse. But very little stretching to the bit and swinging through the back. And the short backs enable these shortcuts along with the absolute willingness to try.

But there is so much to love, I will take these horses over a wb any day. I struggle daily with my current guy, who came with no bend right and no half halt. But he never says “no” and I love him to death. I, too, am old and stiff.

[Bogey2]

they need a VERY educated seat…they teach us a lot

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

So I have to ask… if I am looking for a horse to help me really understand contact

“Really understand contact”…then I would ask what do you mean by “contact.”

Are you thinking of “contact” only only the weight in the reins? I would say it is more. Don’t think of “contact” and think of “connection.”

You are sitting on a living animal. Connection is how both of you communicate with each other.

@Bogey2

they need a VERY educated seat…they teach us a lot

PREs and especially Lusitanos were bred as working cattle horses. I had a Portugues rider tell me, “You cannot fight the bull if you are fighting with the horse.” Thus “contact” comes from the seat, not the hand.

[iberianfan]

I just remembered one example of riding horses in Spain. The owner/trainer was a bullfighter (and lived up to all the stereotypes ). He would tell me a horse was GP. A more willing, better trained horse you would not find. Did all the tricks. But was tight as a coiled spring and relaxation was nowhere to be found.

Of course, that’s logical for a bullfighting horse. But the same was true at multiple barns I went to. The idea of reaching for a soft connection and a swinging back was not addressed. At the barns where the horse had actual dressage basics, they did reach and connect. But most did not.