ICE The elephant in the room

[smoofox]

@SillyHorse

@Bogey2

She had a job here, her dad has a business here, she had a fiancee here but her green card expired. She had to follow the rules to get back in and stay in. There are procedure for a reason

What is the reason in this case?

From all my similar experiences - and having always followed the rules to the letter… the reason is often just “because I can do this to you”. One officer basically said that to me… “I can mess this up”.

@Janet - you have done a great job of detailing a lot of the frustration, needless drama and difficulty involved in the green card process.

It was hard and expensive (for my boss). I started here on a work visa and thought it would be a short stay - but that changed. We jumped through all the flaming hoops to get things done. I was screamed at - SCREAMED at - by irate border officers who were pissed that I was “stealing a job from a fine American citizen” (their exact words over the years). I had officers bang on the counter and yell “what makes YOU think I should allow YOU into MY country??!!” (another phrase I often heard - directed at me and many others).

I had one officer refuse to let me back into the US after a trip home for a funeral… I had learned by then to never react or ask questions - because that is what some want. Nod and smile. Yes sir. No sir. I had to turn around and spend the night in a motel… so I could go back to a different crossing an hour away in the morning with the exact same paperwork (all done correctly) and have no issues getting home.

Sometimes I think that if I had know ahead about all the stress and expense that was involved in the process… I would not have done it. But then I would have missed out on many adventures and friends…

I did everything right. Every. Single. Thing. And it was difficult even for a white woman.

So when I hear people Out There breezily saying… well, illegals should just become citizens… as if it was so very easy… … I want to write them out a reality check.

[smoofox]

@Bogey2

Basically her paperwork was not in order so she was denied return to USA.

… and sometimes, as I noted, everything can be in perfect order and you can still be denied.

[Kirikou]

@findeight

The press seems to think immigrants can just walk to the local courthouse. The reality is part of the problem. Unless they are nuclear scientists or brain surgeons from more exotic regions of course. Regular working class fellow North Americans, not so much.

As a European college professor (not a nuclear scientist, though ), my own path to a green card and citizenship was relatively straightforward—thanks to my university sponsoring me, my paperwork being accepted, and so on. However, it was still a long process (about 14 years), quite expensive (around $10,000 in total, including lawyer and travel fees), and time-consuming for my employer, who had to submit additional paperwork to prove there were no qualified U.S. applicants for the job, hire a lawyer, etc. Generally, the process follows three main steps: 1) obtaining a visa, 2) getting a green card, and 3) applying for citizenship. Most people don’t arrive in the U.S. as green card holders—in my case, I came on an H-1B visa (which had quotas at the time, though not in education, and is now being discussed for removal).

I don’t see the average barn owner having the time or resources to go through the process of sponsoring someone, especially since the visa categories available don’t always make this feasible or straightforward. Last I checked, there isn’t a visa specifically for non-seasonal agricultural workers that would allow a barn owner to easily/affordably sponsor a non-U.S. citizen for full-time farm work. For me, the real “solution” isn’t telling “illegals” to find a legal way to stay here—because there really isn’t a straightforward path for most of the dairy/slaughterhouse workers, etc—but rather encouraging U.S. citizens to lobby their representatives for legislation that makes it easier, cheaper, and more straightforward for business owners to sponsor farm workers if needed. The burden shouldn’t fall solely on immigrants, especially when entire sectors of agriculture seem to rely on immigrant labor.

As a side note, I run a small riding school and care for my 25+ school ponies mostly by myself because I can’t find local workers interested in regular barn work. My dairy and hog farmer neighbors often comment that “I work too hard” and suggest I hire one of their incredibly hardworking, though not-quite-legal, barn hands to help. As a non-U.S. born citizen, getting on the wrong side of the law isn’t something I’m willing to risk (plus, I have strong ethical concerns about hiring people who essentially have no agency in how they’re treated or paid—but that’s another matter ).

[MHM]

@smoofox

irate border officers who were pissed that I was “stealing a job from a fine American citizen”

Funny, I had pretty much the same reaction from a Canadian border guy when I was headed into Canada.

That has only happened once, though. So far, anyway. Knock wood.

[Aussie_2020]

I’m with you! I don’t consider good barn help as unskilled. Show them how you want the stalls cleaned and bedded, they got it; discuss the water and hay, they got it; demonstrate how to handle turn out, they got it; see if they have the “eyes” to know when a horse is NQR, they got it.

If it’s a run of the mill boarding stable I can see how any old warm body might do. I’ve had to board at a few of those over the years and I constantly worried about my horses.

[fivestrideline]

I have seen the “my ancestors got here legally!” argument a few times… not so long ago, “legal” immigration to the US was essentially “bought a boat ticket and showed up”. It certainly isn’t so easy as just walking down to the courthouse these days.

There’s a lot of misinformation out there, but I think the horse industry is going to feel the labor pinch very soon. It’ll start with show grooms, then the home team. And people might suddenly realize that all that “unskilled” labor was very skilled indeed, when suddenly they’re faced with training someone to do those jobs (if they can find someone, and even know how!).

I do think the impact will hit the feed store pretty soon too. Those feed crops don’t harvest themselves.

[sparkygrace]

My husband travels to Canada every other year to hunt. He gets hassled every time he comes back to the states. The border agents he encounters like to bully and be rude. They treat him like a criminal.

[Angela_Freda]

@Belmont

The groom industry, especially in places like Wellington & CA are alive, thriving, and generally very well compensated.

That’s the minority of the whole industry though.

[Aussie_2020]

About ten years ago I had to go to what is called FLETC for several weeks. Lots of border patrol trainees were in my classes. Hoo-eee the attitude. I disliked getting stuck at their table for meals. Very mean type. Not mean to me, just nasty the way they talked about people entering the US.

[findeight]

It does not matter what we think of as skilled or unskilled workers, the desk bound bureaucrats who classify them pit them in the unskilled pile. It is a very complicated system in need of reform. But that is beyond the scope of this thread, as it should be.

When I was looking for boarding I always made sure they hired only thise with papers…and, yes, those barns were more expensive but the low turnover created a better experience for myself and my horses.

[Angela_Freda]

@endlessclimb

But running the handle end of a shovel does not require skill (example).

If that’s all you’re hiring around a high end barn, who’s doing all the other work?
The pro rider? Not likely.
The farm owner? Pfft.

[Arlomine]

Exactly. Who’s doing the turnouts? Who’s dealing with the hooligans to and from the pastures? Who’s feeding and noticing eating habits? These are all important skills and often come with the job of doing Stalls.

[endlessclimb]

I have personally trained many-a stall picker, feeder, turner out-er. It takes 3 days to teach them how to do it, including starting the grouchy tractor and spreading the manure. I’m sure it takes a couple weeks for them to learn faster/better/more efficient ways on their own. We paid by the job (per stall X dollars, turnouts X dollars, etc.) Fractious horses were generally not a problem, but this was a western trail/pleasure rider type barn so I’m sure the horses were more placid than in some high level english barn.

I never said they are not necessary, or valuable in their own right. But jobs that can be trained in a week or less is considered unskilled. I’m not the one who comes up with the definition.

Unskilled labor Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

[cutter99]

@sparkygrace

My husband travels to Canada every other year to hunt. He gets hassled every time he comes back to the states. The border agents he encounters like to bully and be rude. They treat him like a criminal.

My husband traveled to Alberta, Canada this week for work from here in the U.S. It is something he does regularly, anywhere between 4-6 times per year.

It was the first time he encountered the Canadian border agents ever being rude to him. They were very focused on what his return date to the U.S. is.

[MHM]

I often have the border people question me about why I have so many clothes with me if I’m only going to be in Canada for a week. I have to explain to them how life works when you go to horse shows, and you have to be prepared for every possible kind of weather.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re even more suspicious now, since they think a lot of Americans are probably not in a hurry to go home under the current circumstances.

[ParadoxFarm]

@Arlomine

Exactly. Who’s doing the turnouts? Who’s dealing with the hooligans to and from the pastures? Who’s feeding and noticing eating habits? These are all important skills and often come with the job of doing Stalls.

Yes! I don’t even like dealing with the sillies and I have my horses at home!

[Belmont]

I said that…

While I’d say as a whole industry - yes we have a lot of gaps and we underpay a lot of workers… The groom industry, especially in places like Wellington & CA are alive, thriving, and generally very well compensated.

The discussion and reply I was referencing was the different (in pay and hire in general) to the groom vs the average barn worker. People in this thread had made references that instead of buying five and six figure horses, trainers could pay more, in which others (and myself) responded that many A/AA barns do pay a good wage, yet much of their barn help is still illegal.

[Aussie_2020]

I’m surprised, but maybe not really. The hard-ass agents I’ve dealt with when crossing the border have all been the Americans. Going into Canada seemed easy, getting back has been like pulling teeth. Once I was bringing in a carriage and you’d have thought it was 10lbs of heroin.

[findeight]

Oh, back in the “good old days” immigrants were not treated any better even if it was less complicated, fact they may have been treated even worse. Lot of whitewash over how those entry points were really operated…least according to my grandparents and I have no reason to doubt their stories.

Would expect some tit for tat interactions at border crossings as happens every time there is a crackdown by a country. If you will be traveling, be aware.

[LilDunFilly]

I would not classify anyone working around animals, especially horses, as unskilled. It’s all got a level of danger to it that your average job does not “Just” turning a horse out requires some amount of horse handling abilities and can go horribly wrong. Even the most well behaved horse can spook and run someone over. Or step on a foot and break bones. Or slam their hundred+ pound head into a human one. All that can cripple a person and that is with a well behaved horse. Average horse I’ve interacted with enjoys having far fewer manners than I’d like.

I did that “unskilled” labor in college. My coworkers and I had a laundry list of tasks to do in very little time. We’d have more tasked added, far beyond the scope of our job descriptions, and told we should be fine as them paying us more would literally be taking food out of the horses’ mouths