if not the bit, then what?

[thecolorcoal]

so, i know i have posted about this another time, but here is the updated saga:

we’ve been looking for a new bit for my 6 yo TB mare. we’ve been cycling quite a bit from her original loose ring snaffle. we tried loose ring slow twist, d-ring french link, d-ring corkscrew, and a dutch gag. ok – so none of these bits HELPED my issue (she gets very strong, not necessarily quick [maybe more extended], but has a THUNDERING canter like a Clydesdale), and if anything only made her stronger and out of control.

i’ve been training her since i got her. she knows her half-halts (MOST of the time… but i have to be very forceful nowadays…), how to bend, how to lengthen and shorten in a line (very good at that). during jumping, we have no issues with control. it’s ONLY during flat work. :eek:

anyway, yesterday i gave up and popped her back in her old loose ring. SO MUCH BETTER. however, now with increased fitness and 200+ pounds of fat and muscle gain, she is not as easy to control… so i still felt SOME resistance to slow down at the canter.

obviously, if it isn’t a bitting issue, it’s me. she doesn’t rush up to the jumps, and it only seems to be on the flat that we are like a runaway train! :no: any exercises i could do to help us? note: while i don’t entirely mind her like this, i know if we keep it up it’ll be harder and harder to fix as she gets older, and obviously our answer is not to “bit up,” considering that strategy didn’t work.

thanks again coth <3

[Willesdon]

Circles are probably your friend… when she starts tanking, circle. Anywhere in the school, any size, because she will have to slow and bend to keep her balance. You need plenty of leg and seat and keep the outside rein steady to help her. Also, mean it! She knows that you don’t entirely mind her behavior.

[GrayTBJumper]

I second making lots of circles. Spiral in, spiral out. Get her off her shoulders. Also, change directions frequently and do lots of transitions.

When you down transition, don’t just ask her to break to the trot or walk - ask for a balanced, working gait where she doesn’t just collapse onto her front end and fall apart. Sit up, close your fingers and your knees to restrict her shoulders from moving forward, sit into the saddle, and apply a little inside leg.

[thecolorcoal]

thank you. i did not consider she might have my number at this point, as they say! yes, i agree we need to work on circles, which is something i, unfortunately, rarely school in (because it’s hard… but now i understand why).

She does die during the transitions. It is something I’ll work more persistently on. I have a trainer, but I do not ride my horse during our lessons, so that means I have to transfer what I learn over to her. Because she has only been in real training for the past 4 months, it’s been more of a “just try, even if you don’t get it right,” mentality. Honest question: at this point, is she ready for more demanding expectations?

can i ask why she is more difficult on the flat than over fences? i’m curious. Usually, it’s always been the opposite for the horses I ride.

[Lord_Helpus]

She should never be ridden until she is ready to listen and learn — otherwise you get a horse who is strong and has learned to ignore you.

How much turn out? What kind of feed? Hay? ----- Do you lunge her before you ride? In sidereins? Do you take her for hacks in the woods so she learns that not every ride is a training ride?

Seriously, never get on if she is not ready. If she is ready to listen, then you only need to ride for 20 minutes, and get off while she is still listening.

[PNWjumper]

Don’t know if anyone can answer the question for you without seeing the horse. Maybe she picks herself up more once you start jumping?

You say she’s not hot. Is she dull off of your leg? Sometimes dull horses get a little more expressive when the jumps come out.

I would do lots of transitions. Whenever she starts leaning, halt, back up a few steps and then right back to the gait you were in. This also helps with a horse that’s a little dull if you expect (and demand) crisp immediate reactions.

And yes, circles, circle exercises (canter a circle, transition to a trot for a few steps and right back to the canter, increase complexity by cantering a circle, trot with haunches in for a few steps, and then back to canter, etc.).

Trot poles and canter poles.

And yes, she is ready for more demanding expectations if you’re allowing things like the horse fading during transitions (that’s never okay - even with a newly under saddle horse). I have to remind myself of this often with my 4yo horse. If I ride with no excuses then I get a much higher quality ride than if I make excuses for him.

[thecolorcoal]

lord helpus - this has been a recent occurrence. i got her (practically rescued her) at 850 lbs. she is now 1050. at 850 lbs and she acted very different. once she started to get fitter and stronger, the real challenges began. she is very good under saddle, if not anxious to get it right. considering this is a DIY barn and everything is “up to the boarders,” her turnout schedule is not fixed. we are only allowed 15 minutes of turn out a day, so she gets run in the arena for 15. she is on 20 lbs of provided hay (alfalfa in am, grass hay in pm), along with 2 lbs of timothy hay pellets i provide, and 1 lb of rice bran. no grain. she is not a dangerous horse, but now she’s finally come into her own. i trust her wholeheartedly, i am just getting frustrated with her over-exhuberance because she USED to be so easy to control… as far as side reins go, i ALWAYS lunge with the intention to teach her something, so the side reins go on. she’s done very well, and the loose ring helps keep her from bracing and leaning i’ve found. she does ride in contact under saddle, in the correct form with good back movement and a supple jaw - when i first got her she was a stargazer.

PNWjumper - no, not like some of the warmbloods i’ve ridden, but i do wear very, very low-set spurs as an alternative to the crop. when i first got her, she was unresponsive to leg aids and we were able to change that in about 5 days. and thank you! i guess i have been too nice to her and it’s catching up to me… when i first got her we couldn’t even do 15 minutes without her out of breath, and it’s just been such a sudden change i guess i haven’t adjusted quickly enough.

i would also like to note, right or wrong, personally most of this is coming from my hesitation to change her. she finally FEELS like a jumper, like those hot-blooded horses you see on TV. and while i know the path we are going is not good and I do want to change it, part of me is afraid of taking away the spark. i hope that doesn’t sound ridiculous… i like “controlled chaos,” but she is a smart girl and will take advantage of my generosity if i don’t keep her in check, hence my post here. so thank you all for your help: it truly is appreciated.

[BostonHJ]

Don’t ever let her canter a full lap of the arena without adding in a circle or a transition. It sounds like a combination of not wanting to sit up (because it’s hard work) and getting a bit amped. If she doesn’t anticipate getting the chance for the canter to build, your life will be easier.

For jumping, she has no choice but to sit herself up a bit and the jumps are the transitions that re-focus her attention.

[thecolorcoal]

thanks Boston HJ! I NEVER considered that could be a contributing factor! We do canter the lap without transitions or circles. now, i have another question: a friend of mine who was riding with us suggested i do a few circles with her, and i did - but they turned into almost barrel-racing circles with no speed adjustment. my half-halts were no good, and i struggled to lean to the outside as we motorcycled around. any advice on how to change that?

I try not to ride off my hand. for the most part i don’t have much contact on her face, BUT there was a time in my life where i didn’t know what a half-halt was… then i learned, and my world changed for the better. now i almost exclusively rely on half-halts as a “slow down” factor. sitting back with my tb helps as well! but it’s not as consistent.

honestly, with the way she is at the flat i am very surprised she doesn’t ignore me over fences… :lol: but like i said it’s not DANGEROUS, just frustrating. i don’t feel like i am scared or going to die, just irritated that the beautiful stops i worked so hard to install are being forgotten.

[uncanny580]

It sounds like a training issue, not a bitting issue.

Circles, LOTS of transitions, change up what you are doing so that she doesn’t get bored and “take over”.

Do you not have the option to ride her in lessons?

[AprilKisses]

While on the circles are you making sure that she is carrying her weight on her outside legs? It sounds like she is falling in through the shoulder and has a bit of a lean going on. If she is straight through her body on the bend and carrying herself on her outside legs, she can’t “motorcycle” around. If so, try adding a touch of inside rein WITH the inside leg, keeping contact on the outside rein and outside leg behind the girth to support, but enough not pull her out. As she shifts her weight, give a touch with the inside rein (can be even as little as softening your fingers so that they are not pressed into your palm). You should find that over time, there should be no need for the inside rein, when you apply inside leg, she should move off it onto her outside. Once she is balanced on her outside you should find it much easier to half halt.

If she lacks responsiveness to the half halts, ask like a full halt. Make sure you are not driving or otherwise contributing to the speed. Think like you’d like to go down an entire gait until she responds and you feel her sit back and slow down. Then give. As soon as she speeds up, do it again. And again, and again. She will learn. If you have to, make the transition down to get her attention back. I like canter-walk-halt-back up. Make sure each downward transition is a separate entity and completed before starting the next. Then once they are standing, alert and waiting for instruction and pick the canter back up again.

Transitions are a great way to both keep them from anticipating, and also to reorganize so that you are not continuing to ride around while her or you or both are sloppy.

[thecolorcoal]

i’m relieved it’s a training issue. that’s actually easier to fix than spending $$$ on magic bits that may/may not work. we’ve schooled her flying lead changes a few times, though they are only marginally successful. i’m not trained in dressage so i must admit flat work can be quite monotonous to me, too, but i am trying to teach her some basic dressage-y stuff. she once upon a time was so on the forehand she’d out-peanut roll a WP QH. now, she’s moved all her weight to her hind end which is great, but it makes her sooooo powerful it’s almost scary! haha! but i am proud of how far she’s come.

i can, but the only problem is that i get very flustered when taking lessons sometimes, especially when i cannot figure out what i am doing wrong. riding her myself gives me a chance to breathe, slow down, and figure it out on my own without the pressure of my trainer going “WE ONLY HAVE 60 MINUTES GET ON WITH IT!” haha! although i love her to death <3

and thank you, aprilkisses! that’s really good advice that i have never heard before and i will definitely try it! and that will be good for us because we do really need to work on “continuing” after transitions, considering we take too many walk breaks. it usually goes walk-trot-walk-trot-canter-walk-canter (if we can get it)-walk, which now i see might be an issue.

[MIKES_MCS]

It is EXTREMELY hard to retrain an OTTB for a life of slow and low when you can’t turn them out , also sounds like while you were building up her weight you never let her down and by that I mean let her off the bit … Also it is Very important that you keep a relaxed back… Most OTTB’s once they learn they don’t have to work (and have been let down off the bit) , don’t , and when you stop riding they stop moving… The half halting comes after she has been let down and is ready to accept contact with out picking up and spitting the bit . But it is seriously hard for a baord such as this to evaluate a Horse and rider we’ve never seen. and if you can find a barn with proper turn out do so , 15 minutes is almost like a cruel joke

[Willesdon]

Things you do when training horses are often as beneficial, or even more so, when done slowly. In a walk, do loads of half halts and be certain you can feel them before you walk on again. That will bring her hind end under her. At a walk you are able to take time and more control. Walk circles - and be certain they are round rather than eggs or vague wiggles. When you are thinking about geometry the horse can work on her bend and balance without you hassling her. Try changes within the gait: collected, extended as well as working walk. The go up to a trot. Then go up to a canter. This will all vastly improve your jumping too.

[merrygoround]

“Get very flustered taking lessons–when I cannot figure out what I’m doing wrong”.

The whole point of taking lessons is so an instructor can tell you what you are doing wrong. I think you need an instructor who can help you, not simply ride your horse. I suspect there are holes in your instructors ability to teach which are showing up in your ability to ride half halts without getting strong.

In your case, I think you need to change your instructor.

[thecolorcoal]

updates for you all!

I have used the transition suggestion. we worked on walk to trot transitions. In the beginning she really fell into them, and remembering the advice everyone gave me, I realized we were not balanced. So i asked again for the trot, and lightly and progressively half halted into our walk. After a few attempts, we made several beautiful down transitions.

canter to trot was just as rocky, but after a few times we were able to get it almost good. The holes in her training are starting to appear the more I work on flatwork HAHAHAH!

The loose ring bit really does keep her from leaning, but i must admit: the d-rings look oh so much better on her. Whenever i fit her in a d-ring, she goes back to being a little dragging dragon. I understand now that it CAN be fixed. We have really found some new fun in flat work, and i am also working on our collected sitting trot, side passes at the trot and canter, and simple changes in preparation for flying lead changes.

Like i said, though: to the fences, she is perfect every time. no rushing, no pulling - i really just sit back and leave her alone to do her thing. she is very responsive to my legs and trusts my eye, even if i ask for a long take-off.

and merrygoround, that was something A LOT of people told me… they said i should not be getting upset or embarrassed or ashamed during lessons… which i found strange considering all my trainers were very much like the music instructor in “whiplash,” if you get what i mean xD i am in transition to a new trainer - the right one still hasn’t been found yet…

[thecolorcoal]

Ok. New update.

I’ve realized that my mare is grabbing the bit with her teeth!! My loose ring snaffle that I have been oh so nice to use!! She doesn’t yank my arms out, but with her bit grasped between her teeth it is impossible to control her… OY.

Help wanted… I’ve never had these issues riding before!