If you're going to breed, TRAIN!!!

[mvp]

[QUOTE=microbovine;8760311]
It does seem like Arabian horse owners are pretty bad at training their stock. Perhaps the breed inadvertently attracts more than it’s share of beginners that want pretty pasture ornaments. They have some low end priced animals, so that makes access to breeding stock easy. I knew people who owned Arabians when I lived out West and it seemed like a LOT of newbies in the Arab world owned stallions. I didn’t know any new stock horse owners that owned stallions. Quite strange. It is different down here, but only in that there seem to be other breeds afflicted with newbies owning stallions (Paso Finos and QHs, especially). I wish you luck in finding a nicely bred, reasonably priced, Arabian. I’m sure they are out there.[/QUOTE]

Well… Arabians are among the hotter of the “mythic” breeds (Your AQHA instant cowboy horses, your hairy gypsy vanners and such.) So the beginnners’ mistakes show more.

All of the Arabians bred during their pre-1986 heyday must be dead by now, right? I mean, I can see why lots of crap was bred and sold to whomever when the tax law encouraged rich folks to “invest”/lose money in livestock. But I don’t see why there is a lot of surplus stock around now. Maybe 2008 was another “market correction” for horse breeding. So the babies bred in 2007 and before are now just about that proverbial 12-year-old unbroken horse now.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8760334]
And yet another example of shooting the messenger. Not because of the content of the message, but because of it’s tone. Even Jesus Christ got mad at the money changers.

The substance of the message is spot on.

Maybe if the world paid more attention to substance than form problems might actually be solved.

G.[/QUOTE]

Hey, man. I didn’t say the OP was wrong, either in the substance of her message or her anger about the fubar situation, or even in her posting it. I was just pointing out that the OP’s next post (and this whole line of side-bickering) proves Foxtrot’s point. And Foxtrot being right has nothing logically to do with whether or not the OP is right. Ergo, don’t get mad at me for pointing out that truth. Shoot me if you want, but that truthy message stands either way.

I do think, however, that folks should be aware of their emotions. Yelling back, “Eff you, I’m not mad!” shows that someone, somewhere either doesn’t know what those words mean…or that they are, in fact, mad. And also, I didn’t see the OP suggesting a solution. Feel free to hold everyone, the OP and subsequent posters to the same standard, will ya?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=CVPeg;8760378]
We constantly get the types moving upstate to the country, and out of the city- where, of course, they all know more than we do. Probably more accurately not directly from NYC, but the surrounding 'burbs/states. [/QUOTE]

I think this is right, and there’s a national version of it. See, the only people who have any money left are the 50-somethings who always wanted a horse but who didn’t get to do that yet because they were building family and career. Now they have the time and money to fulfill their dreams. And they have plenty of competence and age on 'em, so they aren’t folks accustomed to thinking of themselves as helpless newbies who need schooling.

There are lots and lots of people out there who think it’s just easier to take their money and sell them something. I see their point. It takes a long time for the clueless buyer to realize that the whole horse farm/horse raising thing was not for them.

[microbovine]

Oh boy. I forgot about the Gypsy Vanner horses (I believe they are called Cobbs in Ireland and the UK). Talk about an overpriced breed! I still see them around here as well as their ‘designer’ offspring. The Cobbs are like a good, solid, family horse. Kind of like the way well tempered QHs used to be marketed (and some still are). It would be nice if GVs were marketed like that. Surely, as a nice tempered horse, they could have a lot of appeal for a family or newbie, even without the color. It would make more sense and the more appropriate pricing would discourage breeding everything to everything.

[microbovine]

I would never dream of breeding horses unless I was comfortable starting colts. That’s the way it ought to be for everyone.

I breed cattle, but since I sell the heifers as family milk cows, I need to halter break and gentle the heifers so they are ready to do their job. I don’t even sell untrained cows! My trained cows all have great homes where they are doing their job.

So, if I was looking to buy a horse from a breeder, I would expect them to have given the horse a good start, and maybe even taken them to a show, depending on their age. If I do this for cattle, you bet I expect horse breeders to do their equivalent.

If you breed anything that has a job, you better know how to train it to do that job. Or, at least, give it the basics.

[mvp]

Having bred one for myself and written all the checks for that, I think anyone required to raise the horse up to riding age and then to show it a bit wouldn’t breed at all. Getting a horse from zero to 90 days under saddle and to even one horse show is a lot of money and risk. As a buyer (who was also a breeder once and wrote those checks), I still don’t want to pay what it costs to get to that 3/4 year old baby. I feel bad for breeders.

[Scribbler]

As I understand it, even a lot of the high-end breeders don’t necessarily put a lot of training into their young stock. Training isn’t what they’re set up to do, but more importantly, they sell them as yearlings, two year olds, three year olds.

On the other hand, with backyard breeders, it’s very, very easy for that colt to just age out. It doesn’t sell, owners decide to let it run out another winter (with the rest of the horses that no one has time to ride), and suddenly 6 or 8 years have gone by.

I think of these as horses that have fallen through the cracks. A few years back, I saw a small herd of about 5 or 6 warmbloods, ranging from nice-enough to quite flashy, who were about ten years old, unbroke, late gelded, from a backyard breeder. They came through our barn where the breeder’s ammie friend helped train and sell them. They ended up making servicable low-level dressage and jumping horses. Training them looked like it was perhaps a bit easier that if they’d been high-energy three year olds. They might have been worth more if they’d been trained early and had show records, so ultimately the breeder lost out there, but they all seem to have found slots in life.

So I wouldn’t automatically discount buying a horse like that, if you were willing to put the training into it. And also, the horse is more likely to be sound than if it was started too young and pushed hard.

Not at all saying this is a good way to raise horses, but that you could find bargains.

[CVPeg]

@mvp;8760747

I think this is right, and there’s a national version of it. See, the only people who have any money left are the 50-somethings who always wanted a horse but who didn’t get to do that yet because they were building family and career. Now they have the time and money to fulfill their dreams. And they have plenty of competence and age on 'em, so they aren’t folks accustomed to thinking of themselves as helpless newbies who need schooling.

That’s the exact demographic. Atty & psych in their late 50’s, Paint people a little bit older but he had just retired, and new TB breeder in his early 50’s.
BO who tied my horse to the pole also the same age.

And what did I know? I showed up in chaps (no ‘riding pants’ and boots!:eek:) with an OTTB (double :eek:). So I obviously don’t know anything. My guy a handful, but the trainer at boarding barn almost non-existent so it was just ammy me and horse.

And why I had to come to COTH for answers! :winkgrin:

[Lady_Eboshi]

Another demographic is people who’ve had a breeding operation for many years, generations even, and just don’t seem to know how to stop though the market’s tanked and they’re selling their young stock at a loss–or can barely even give them away! I recently picked up a fabulous youngster that way; the owner was a highly competent, well-respected breeder, who even admitted she should stop breeding; but the herd had become a perpetual-motion machine difficult to stop without major changes in management she was unequipped to make.

I’m afraid ALL the scenarios posted in this thread happen all too often.

Also seen a lot of very nice horses going through the sales lately because no one bothered to ever GELD them; and stallion handling is daunting to most people. The only reason they’re even getting the second chance they are is because most KB’s won’t ship studs; they need a separate space on the truck.

I feel it’s incumbent on EVERYONE in the horse world, but particularly pros, to apply the kind of PEER PRESSURE that’s made spay and neuter the norm (at least in the Northeast) for cats and dogs. Vets, farriers, trainers, barn owners should call a spade a spade when they see these pending trainwrecks, and let it be known that running a herd of feral, unbroken equines is creating a sad, difficult, highly unnecessary humane drama when the can finally gets kicked down the road.

Of course, I’m also seeing a HUGE market for young trainers to specialize in starting and putting that first 90+ days on young horses. This is a HUGE hole in the supply chain from breeder to show ring, and one that needs to be filled.

[DJohn]

Gah, don’t even get me started!

If I hear “she’s not riding sound, so we’re going to breed her” one more time I may hurt someone.

Passing on a genetic imperfection is only one of the reasons that statement drives me absolutely bonkers. Adding another club-footed, post-legged essentially garbagehorse to the world is not helping anyone out!

In my opinion, people should be limited to a certain number of foals per year and there should be some way to stop backyardigans from letting a stallion loose in a herd of mares. How about a “fee” that must be paid for each foal (like the environmental fee when you buy electronics).

I also believe many of the QH/Paint/Arab “professional” breeders should be limited as well. Most of the horses at the slaughter auctions are QHs that are 8 years old, barely halter broke with horrendous feet. Limit them to a certain # of foals per year, and also make them pay a fee when the foal is born/sold.

In an ideal world, only certain people should be allowed to breed. There should be a license for such things. You should be required to have your horses inspected to prove that they are worthy of being bred. And if you choose to breed your own mare for a legitimate reason (you’ll be breeding for the foal and keeping it), then you should sign a waiver stating that you will be responsible for that horse from birth onward.

It sounds extreme but I can see the stupid stars in people’s eyes when they say "my mare has an exceptional personality, it’s OK if she has a back as long as a bus, I’m sure the stallion will fix that in the foal. It’s OK that my 3 year old mare has a life-altering lameness, I’ll just breed her 5 times and sell all her foals for big $$. And my favorite “dumb-ass” quote: Buy a mare, because if you can’t ride it, you can breed it.

BRB, going to pull all my hair out. :mad:

TO add: My horse was a result of someone else’s neglect. An “accidental” baby owned by a complete numpty. If he hadn’t lucked out and ended up with me, he’d already be someone’s dinner/dog food. It disgusts me to think that my horse could’ve been discarded like a piece of trash, when it wasn’t in any way his fault!

Deep breath. Must remember to buy horse extra carrots today.

[Lady_Eboshi]

I have a young mare in my own pasture right now who would be highly saleable as a broodmare because of her desirable bloodlines (QH) and color (red roan) alone; she went lame at age 4 with a likely DDFT tear inside the capsule of her tiny, clubby foot. Because I don’t believe the world needs more like that, she’ll live out her life here as a pasture puff instead of perpetuating her conformation flaws. Buying youngsters is ALWAYS a gamble; she looked fine as a baby, but that leg and foot did not normally develop by maturity.

She and my lovely Walker mare were both bought as weanlings out of bargain-basement dispersal sales of what would otherwise have been higher-end horses. My other Walker was dumped repeatedly as an undersized, unbroken baby and fortunately a sharp eye recognized what he was at 2 minutes to midnight for the ride to Mexico. He’s turned into one of the most trustworthy, fun and gorgeous horses I’ve ever owned.

But it takes WORK and MONEY and TIME, and that’s what too many people just can’t find. As several of you have said, people don’t realize the depth of the commitment.

[Pocket_Pony]

When I bought my mare, I was looking at 2- to 3-year-olds. I specifically wanted a horse that had NOT been started under saddle. Normal daily handling, yes (leading, tying, grooming, standing for vet/farrier, etc.), but actually having been ridden, no.

Basically I was interested in horses that had been set up for success with a competent breeder who knew how to bring along young stock. I wouldn’t have wanted one straight out of the pasture with no handling…there’s got to be a balance there.

[Angela_Freda]

Cranbury SS is driving me mad too, right now, Lady E… too many young or older horses who not only are they not started or broke… but aren’t even really halter broke.
It is incredibly sad.

But they get sold, week in and week out, so the cycle will continue.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8760889]
When I bought my mare, I was looking at 2- to 3-year-olds. I specifically wanted a horse that had NOT been started under saddle. Normal daily handling, yes (leading, tying, grooming, standing for vet/farrier, etc.), but actually having been ridden, no.

Basically I was interested in horses that had been set up for success with a competent breeder who knew how to bring along young stock. I wouldn’t have wanted one straight out of the pasture with no handling…there’s got to be a balance there.[/QUOTE]

2-3 years old without being backed ought to be the norm. 8-12 not.
Although, back in the day some lucky lad in Germany pulled a 6 yo unbroke mare from a pasture, and she became a top show jumper. I am assuming she was handled though, not with elf slippers, etc…

I have heard of folks that don’t want to start their horses until way late…but that was in the early days of the net…No telling where that lady, her Angelfire homepage and her horses are now!

[Foxtrot_s]

I’m the poster who called LE angry…I did not say I did not agree with her.
Just all those CAPITALS mean she is shouting, and there is a history with her of posts of a certain tone.

Also, I am a back yard breeder of horses and dogs. I am riding the granddaughter of a mare I had and there are generations of my Jack Russels
running around here, all with a noticeable stamp on them.

So - for once - I do agree and think it is just sad that anybody who has a horse with testicles or ovaries feels they have to breed them, dogs or horses.

[HLMom]

This is a very interesting topic, because my daughter and I were having this discussion just this morning, as we drove to see the breeder who has our mare (an imported Nimmerdor granddaughter with a long show record, before anyone gets uptight that we are “backyard breeding” an unsuitable horse).

Specifically, we were saying how horses have such a long lead-time before they are amateur or junior ready… like 6 or 8 years! There seems to be a great shortage of people who want to support and put training on a horse for years before it is ready for the amateur market. As we talked, I considered whether I would put her (a teenage intermediate rider) on a 4 or 5 year old, but quickly came to the conclusion that a green horse’s unpredictability would probably jeopardize her confidence and give me multiple heart attacks.

But I feel like we are the epitome of the problem – we want a well-trained horse that “someone” has put 4-5 years of training on. Who is the “someone”?!

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=HLMom;8761029]
This is a very interesting topic, because my daughter and I were having this discussion just this morning, as we drove to see the breeder who has our mare (an imported Nimmerdor granddaughter with a long show record, before anyone gets uptight that we are “backyard breeding” an unsuitable horse).

Specifically, we were saying how horses have such a long lead-time before they are amateur or junior ready… like 6 or 8 years! There seems to be a great shortage of people who want to support and put training on a horse for years before it is ready for the amateur market. As we talked, I considered whether I would put her (a teenage intermediate rider) on a 4 or 5 year old, but quickly came to the conclusion that a green horse’s unpredictability would probably jeopardize her confidence and give me multiple heart attacks.

But I feel like we are the epitome of the problem – we want a well-trained horse that “someone” has put 4-5 years of training on. Who is the “someone”?![/QUOTE]

In many cases intermediate teenage riders, who in turn will become advanced riders…along with the horse.

My sister broke her frst horse at age 17 (k, that mare popped out broke) and went on to start a lot of our home breds.
She was not a super brave rider, she would not jump and found little appeal on the trail, but she had a lot of gumption and such. and if started right, 4/5 year olds were considered young, but no longer babies.

Oh, one riding school, the instructor had this little chestnut mare. First year she was nothing particular, we kids had lessons on her, next time around, the mare got a little itchy…dumped my cousin in a spectacular way!
Next thing I heard, one of the top BNR showed the little gal in intermediate show jumping…on the rise!

[UnlacedDreams]

I have a lovely rescue paint mare that non-horse people and “pro-breeding” horse people (not pro as in professional, but pro- as in “if it has a uterus, stick a baby in there!”) looove asking me when she’s going to be bred.

And I’m like…you’re joking right? You couldn’t pay me enough to want two of her. Yeah, she’s pretty. But she’s still batsh!t crazy at times and her hooves are so small that I’m surprised she’s still sound.

[511]

@Lady Eboshi;8759857

Sad scene the last few weeks at the East Coast auctions. A large number of BEAUTIFUL horses in their prime rendered desirable only for meat by the fact that at 7, 8, 10, 12 or 15 years old they are only HALTER-BROKE if that.

I am I the minority here but I don’t understand the ‘expiration date’ on training mentality. I broke my mare at 5 and bought an unbroken 6 year old and neither one has been the worse for it.

What you call a waste I would call a bargain. Granted 12 is a bit old but I would snap up a going for meat price, good looking, well bred, unmessed with 5 to 9 year old that the former owner just had not gotten around to breaking.

It is the horse that has been started and under saddle for years that is still being run through as ‘green’ broke will buck/bolt/kick/bite that I run from. In the olden days we called them outlaws.

Older horses can be trained just like younger horses and their legs have fused so they are less likely to screw up their still growing legs.

The downside of starting an older horse is that if you are buying them as a project to sell they do not move as fast as a younger horse.

BTW -Other end of the spectrum. Has anyone done a study on what percentage of those broke at 18 months and shown at two futurity horses are still sound at 10? 15? 20?

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=5;8761218]
I am I the minority here but I don’t understand the ‘expiration date’ on training mentality. I broke my mare at 5 and bought an unbroken 6 year old and neither one has been the worse for it.

What you call a waste I would call a bargain. Granted 12 is a bit old but I would snap up a going for meat price, good looking, well bred, unmessed with 5 to 9 year old that the former owner just had not gotten around to breaking.

It is the horse that has been started and under saddle for years that is still being run through as ‘green’ broke will buck/bolt/kick/bite that I run from. In the olden days we called them outlaws.

Older horses can be trained just like younger horses and their legs have fused so they are less likely to screw up their still growing legs.

The downside of starting an older horse is that if you are buying them as a project to sell they do not move as fast as a younger horse.

BTW has anyone done a study on what percentage of those broke at 18 months and shown at two futurity horses are still sound at 10? 15? 20?[/QUOTE]
Some things are easier to do in younger years…
You assume they come halter broke, nor feral…yes, you can get a deal, if you know what to do…most don’t.
Most don’t want (or can’t) train. You neglect that in the horse’s younger year, you might as well shoot it!
Horse people who can are slowly dying out,few are growing in after.