[QUOTE=5;8761218]
BTW -Other end of the spectrum. Has anyone done a study on what percentage of those broke at 18 months and shown at two futurity horses are still sound at 10? 15? 20?[/QUOTE]
I feel like there’s someone here who has provided a link to a study about that in the past, but I cannot remember who it is - Bluey, maybe?
And then there’s Dr. Deb’s take on it. http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
I’m going to be a bit vague because I don’t want to publicly out people when I don’t know their circumstances…
I thought of this thread earlier today when I got a sale announcement in my email for a breeders dispersal. Took a look at the horses and while their bloodlines were excellent I don’t think a single one was trained under saddle. A lot of potential but again - who wants to take a chance on an aged stallion that needs to be gelded and trained to be useful?
Just sad and LE I don’t blame you for being mad. It’s totally unfair to the horses.
ETA: 20+ horses. Some of the copy for them just reinforces the comments here although I do believe they are halter broke at least. And not thin. But definitely not trained much beyond that.
[QUOTE=Montanas_Girl;8760556]
Thanks for the tip. The type of horse I’m looking for (working western) doesn’t often show up in those sales, but I’ll keep an eye out. I’m in no hurry - have to sell a horse first.[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen a few nice ones go through there for between 3-8k, trained reiners. Not many or often but always worth a look. 
Good luck!
[QUOTE=Unfforgettable;8761293]
I’ve seen a few nice ones go through there for between 3-8k, trained reiners. Not many or often but always worth a look. Good luck![/QUOTE]
Thanks!
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8760807]
Another demographic is people who’ve had a breeding operation for many years, generations even, and just don’t seem to know how to stop though the market’s tanked and they’re selling their young stock at a loss–or can barely even give them away! I recently picked up a fabulous youngster that way; the owner was a highly competent, well-respected breeder, who even admitted she should stop breeding; but the herd had become a perpetual-motion machine difficult to stop without major changes in management she was unequipped to make.
I’m afraid ALL the scenarios posted in this thread happen all too often.
Also seen a lot of very nice horses going through the sales lately because no one bothered to ever GELD them; and stallion handling is daunting to most people. The only reason they’re even getting the second chance they are is because most KB’s won’t ship studs; they need a separate space on the truck.
I feel it’s incumbent on EVERYONE in the horse world, but particularly pros, to apply the kind of PEER PRESSURE that’s made spay and neuter the norm (at least in the Northeast) for cats and dogs. Vets, farriers, trainers, barn owners should call a spade a spade when they see these pending trainwrecks, and let it be known that running a herd of feral, unbroken equines is creating a sad, difficult, highly unnecessary humane drama when the can finally gets kicked down the road.
Of course, I’m also seeing a HUGE market for young trainers to specialize in starting and putting that first 90+ days on young horses. This is a HUGE hole in the supply chain from breeder to show ring, and one that needs to be filled.[/QUOTE]
We need a Bob Barker (host of The Price is Right who is vociferously pro-spay/neuter) of the horse world.
I think you are right on both counts: Breeders just can’t leave the poker table while they are ahead… they have to keep betting until the house wins. It’s not like casinos or horse breeding (if you have land and the habit) every close.
And it needs to become culturally unacceptable to create animals for whom you won’t be responsible. Heck, I didn’t have kids because I was pretty sure I’d never be able to buy them the college education I was given!
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8760807]
Of course, I’m also seeing a HUGE market for young trainers to specialize in starting and putting that first 90+ days on young horses. This is a HUGE hole in the supply chain from breeder to show ring, and one that needs to be filled.[/QUOTE]
“If you pay them, they will come.” I don’t see a huge demand for young horse trainers in this country. You can tell because, demand or not, too few people follow up that request for colt starting with dollars.
This may be way off-topic, but I was reminded when I read this thread.
This is hardly a new phenomenon:
I had the privilege of seeing Christine Stuckelberger ride Ms. Kosterka’s stallion Troubador, her Reserve for the Swiss team in the '88 Olympics.
From this you might have considered her a reputable breeder.
Sad ending to what might have been.
Getting a horse from zero to 90 days under saddle and to even one horse show is a lot of money and risk. As a buyer (who was also a breeder once and wrote those checks), I still don’t want to pay what it costs to get to that 3/4 year old baby. I feel bad for breeders.
This and the comment up thread about getting a horse to true amateur quality are important points although maybe off topic a bit. The biggest problem I see is we(general we) all want the nice, well-trained or experienced AA horse but it cost quite a bit of money to breed, raise, and train these horses. How many times do we see ISO ads on social media sites for these types of horses with a top budget of $10-$12K? Even if I started my babies myself (which actually has value too so not exactly free), I can’t put them on the ground, raise them for 4 or 5 years, train them and get them plenty of experience for that kind of price and I own my farm mortgage free plus raise my own hay so my costs are cheaper than if I had to board and buy everything at market value. I get that most of us are limited by what we can afford to buy but if people can’t /won’t pay what it realistically cost to get a horse to that level, what do we expect is going to happen? Granted, I don’t think leaving a horse in the back pasture and doing nothing with it is the answer but I also don’t expect breeders to supplement a person’s desire to own and ride a horse either. What is the solution? I don’t know.
[QUOTE=Fourbeats;8761679]
This and the comment up thread about getting a horse to true amateur quality are important points although maybe off topic a bit. The biggest problem I see is we(general we) all want the nice, well-trained or experienced AA horse but it cost quite a bit of money to breed, raise, and train these horses. How many times do we see ISO ads on social media sites for these types of horses with a top budget of $10-$12K? Even if I started my babies myself (which actually has value too so not exactly free), I can’t put them on the ground, raise them for 4 or 5 years, train them and get them plenty of experience for that kind of price and I own my farm mortgage free plus raise my own hay so my costs are cheaper than if I had to board and buy everything at market value. I get that most of us are limited by what we can afford to buy but if people can’t /won’t pay what it realistically cost to get a horse to that level, what do we expect is going to happen? Granted, I don’t think leaving a horse in the back pasture and doing nothing with it is the answer but I also don’t expect breeders to supplement a person’s desire to own and ride a horse either. What is the solution? I don’t know.[/QUOTE]
The equine market has been in contraction for a very long time (at least as far back as the '08 Financial Crisis. The demographics are terrible (kids who would rather play Pokeymon Go than get all sweaty working with horse). The costs are significant. Up thread somebody mentioned Arabian youngsters starting at $500. Given that it costs roughly $1500-$2500 on average to bring a foal to weaning age that means somebody just took a Big Hit for each foal sold. Add to that excellent comments of fourbeats and the problem is sharply defined.
G.
Not to mention, training for 1 month by a pro trainer is $1,000/mth around here, with board.
That’s assuming that you’re doing everything that the foal needs to develop during that time–vet, good quality hay, worming, training etc. That’s a big assumption out here. I’m a member of a local “horses for sale” FB group. I am positive that the majority of horses that I see for sale here are not getting that level of care.
[QUOTE=mayhew;8761724]
That’s assuming that you’re doing everything that the foal needs to develop during that time–vet, good quality hay, worming, training etc. That’s a big assumption out here. I’m a member of a local “horses for sale” FB group. I am positive that the majority of horses that I see for sale here are not getting that level of care.[/QUOTE]
Well, considering that to get a quality foal, you have to pay stud fees…2500 is on the very low end.
But yeah, if you just throw walking uterus out with the lilac dun from the CL…that number stands (but disappears in daily feed bills and the mortgage cost)
Western Horseman does a monthly article on big ranches and most of them seem to still start colts. The traditional ones put 90 days on them and then turn them out to grow up before a refresher course and sale. Is this formula still working for them? Perhaps, if the land is still inexpensive enough where they are. If the taxes aren’t too high and the water hasn’t dried up.
For awhile, those ranch horse auctions were pulling in some decent prices and they sold many geldings, rather than a lot of mares. I never saw a stallions for sale.
I know many have diversified to survive, but I hope they are still keeping their breeding programs going.
I cannot imagine trying to do this unless you had enough pasture to turn the young horses out and/or cut hay to save on costs. I think what happens is a small breeder breeds too many horses for their land or never had enough land to begin with. Or, what I see, is land not being utilized efficiently. Knowledge about pasture management and rotation is very important and many horse breeders don’t recognize the value of an agricultural education. Also county extension agents are under-utilized for advice when starting an ag operation.
On the other hand, I think this makes sense. Maybe not the crazy backyard breeders and what not, but I can totally see why there are horses of great bloodlines in the auctions, selling for meat.
Everyone buys made now! I can count on one hand the horses in the barn I board at (over 100 horses on property) who were started by their current owner. It probably wouldn’t even take two hands to count the owners who are only one removed from the trainer who started the horse!
I agree we should constrict breeding. Maybe license it or limit it in some other ways. But let’s also encourage people to buy 2 and 3 year olds to bring along themselves. Not all breeders have to be trainers, but they do need a market to sell to. More riders should be trainers, maybe not professionally, but for themselves.
Also buying in America would help. Every job an imported horse gets is one less job for a horse bred here. I’m not against importing. And I totally agree with the original argument (less breeding). But I think it’s prudent to explore more than one solutions i.e. encouraging and teaching riders to bring along their own horses. There isn’t anything more rewarding in riding than succeeding on a horse you brought along yourself IMO.
[QUOTE=mvp;8761564]
We need a Bob Barker (host of The Price is Right who is vociferously pro-spay/neuter) of the horse world.
I think you are right on both counts: Breeders just can’t leave the poker table while they are ahead… they have to keep betting until the house wins. It’s not like casinos or horse breeding (if you have land and the habit) every close.
And it needs to become culturally unacceptable to create animals for whom you won’t be responsible. Heck, I didn’t have kids because I was pretty sure I’d never be able to buy them the college education I was given![/QUOTE]
You are sooooo right! When people tell me to breed my horses, I say no way, just like with my dogs and cats. I can buy or adopt an animal instead of creating more since so many are unwanted. As for buying in America, well, when Americans create better warmbloods, maybe. Meanwhile I buy the TB mares in America who have been used up and discarded. Some of them are terrific horses.
[QUOTE=Doctor’sOrders;8761818]
On the other hand, I think this makes sense. Maybe not the crazy backyard breeders and what not, but I can totally see why there are horses of great bloodlines in the auctions, selling for meat.
Everyone buys made now! I can count on one hand the horses in the barn I board at (over 100 horses on property) who were started by their current owner. It probably wouldn’t even take two hands to count the owners who are only one removed from the trainer who started the horse!
I agree we should constrict breeding. Maybe license it or limit it in some other ways. But let’s also encourage people to buy 2 and 3 year olds to bring along themselves. Not all breeders have to be trainers, but they do need a market to sell to. More riders should be trainers, maybe not professionally, but for themselves.
Also buying in America would help. Every job an imported horse gets is one less job for a horse bred here. I’m not against importing. And I totally agree with the original argument (less breeding). But I think it’s prudent to explore more than one solutions i.e. encouraging and teaching riders to bring along their own horses. There isn’t anything more rewarding in riding than succeeding on a horse you brought along yourself IMO.[/QUOTE]
well, it won’t work that way.
What could be done - and it won’t work either, for oh so many reasons - would be to assign equine businesses the agricultural importance they have:
Recognize breeding as farming business, don’t make breeders jump through hoops to get their tax exemptions.
Include showing into the equation, because the get has to earn their stripes.
Pay out breeders incentives for show horses.
It give the breeders a reason to invest in the training of young stock.
It gives regions a reason to put on shows, etc, and might in turn establish a connection with young riders who can train and show and the breeders who have the mounts.
Of course, maybe they need to offer a cheap insurance plan, too…but that is a US problem. 
Restricting breeding will only cut another leg out from under the industry. Not to mantion that is s rather un-American, perhaps unconstitutional.
[QUOTE=microbovine;8760748]
Oh boy. I forgot about the Gypsy Vanner horses (I believe they are called Cobbs in Ireland and the UK). Talk about an overpriced breed! [/QUOTE]
Its cobs And over here in the UK you can pick up a young cob colt for free and a filly for next to nothing. The older established riding horses are a lot more expensive. There are also good quality cobs and not good quality cobs! I am yet to see one in the US that I would have in my stable!
This is mine, hes clipped out which makes it easier to see his conformation, but hes a good quality example:
He is everything they are supposed to be. He can be ridden by a tiny child but will up his game if you can ride. I ride him as a disabled rider and he is kind enough to look after me. He also has tons of personality and is lovely to have around:
He cost me £500 to buy as a 2yr old which is a lot for his sort in the UK. I paid over the odds as I refuse to have a cob with a huge block head and sloping croup! He has probably cost me £5,000 to get to 6yr old and anyones ride and I am a competent and experienced rider/handler. If he wasnt an easy ride and still had his testicles you wouldnt be able to give him away.
It seems really odd to me that “gypsy vanners” sell for mega bucks in the US when they arent good examples.
Its also clear this is a problem everywhere! Most of the cobs over here that were badly bred and unhandled went for meat, but that market has collapsed in the UK. Yet stil bin end breeders churn out low quality stock and do nothing with it which renders it less than worthless sadly 
[QUOTE=frankiec;8761907]
Its cobs And over here in the UK you can pick up a young cob colt for free and a filly for next to nothing. The older established riding horses are a lot more expensive. There are also good quality cobs and not good quality cobs! I am yet to see one in the US that I would have in my stable!
This is mine, hes clipped out which makes it easier to see his conformation, but hes a good quality example:
He is everything they are supposed to be. He can be ridden by a tiny child but will up his game if you can ride. I ride him as a disabled rider and he is kind enough to look after me. He also has tons of personality and is lovely to have around:
He cost me £500 to buy as a 2yr old which is a lot for his sort in the UK. I paid over the odds as I refuse to have a cob with a huge block head and sloping croup! He has probably cost me £5,000 to get to 6yr old and anyones ride and I am a competent and experienced rider/handler. If he wasnt an easy ride and still had his testicles you wouldnt be able to give him away.
It seems really odd to me that “gypsy vanners” sell for mega bucks in the US when they arent good examples.
Its also clear this is a problem everywhere! Most of the cobs over here that were badly bred and unhandled went for meat, but that market has collapsed in the UK. Yet stil bin end breeders churn out low quality stock and do nothing with it which renders it less than worthless sadly :([/QUOTE]
It’s the majikal thing that happened when they crossed the Atlantic. Suddenly they pooped golden butterflies and farted rainbows.
But with everything else, the bottom fell out of that fairy tale…
And the story that goes with the Vanner is priceless, too!
frankiec, nice looking horse.
I’m looking (not very seriously yet) for a green broke or even not yet started horse for 1,000 - 3,000. That’t not just because my budget only extends that far, but also because I really like a project and I have the skills to develop a young horse’s potential. I find that developing greenies is much more fun than winning classes on made horses. In my price range, I could find a grade green broke QH type tomorrow. For only slightly more money, I could travel to a track and bring home an OTTB with tons of sport potential and great conformation. When I can get a really solid citizen for so little, I’m afraid that the somewhat halter broke 8 year olds I see on the local FB group for $500 are all taking a trip south, or worse, ending up starving in someone’s back yard and producing more of the same.
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