If you're going to breed, TRAIN!!!

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=mayhew;8761724]
That’s assuming that you’re doing everything that the foal needs to develop during that time–vet, good quality hay, worming, training etc. That’s a big assumption out here. I’m a member of a local “horses for sale” FB group. I am positive that the majority of horses that I see for sale here are not getting that level of care.[/QUOTE]

I include in here extra feed for the mare, particularly during lactation, as well the ordinary vaccinations for both mare and foal. It does not include any sort of stud fee. I know some folks might not do everything, but I think these are pretty good “ball park” numbers.

The “bottom line” is that a reasonably healthy, well started four year old is going to represent between $6000 and $8000 of somebody’s money. If the horse sells for less than that somebody just ate a loss. I think it also goes a long way towards explaining horses of this age ending up in the kill pens as breeders struggle to get something to cover their significant losses.

G.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8762305]
I include in here extra feed for the mare, particularly during lactation, as well the ordinary vaccinations for both mare and foal. It does not include any sort of stud fee. I know some folks might not do everything, but I think these are pretty good “ball park” numbers.

The “bottom line” is that a reasonably healthy, well started four year old is going to represent between $6000 and $8000 of somebody’s money. If the horse sells for less than that somebody just ate a loss. I think it also goes a long way towards explaining horses of this age ending up in the kill pens as breeders struggle to get something to cover their significant losses.

G.[/QUOTE]

At least!^.

I bought my very well-bred Walker mare as a weanling for $500.00, and boarded her for the next 3 1/2 years with the breeder in a very, very relatively inexpensive part of the country (deep South). She received excellent care and handling every day. She was started under saddle last November, with an excellent trainer at a price nearly the Northeast going rate.
7 months of training board and she’s ready to go to work. Add in the $3K trailer ride to get her to me (business class, admittedly!) plus weanling to age 4 vet, farrier, Coggins?

On the day she walked down the ramp at my place I have $17,000.00 in this mare, and that’s without a single glitch, not even a single owwie or farm call or setback in four years!

Purchase price is the LEAST of the expenses!

[lawndart]

Exception to the rule

I’m glad to say I am the exception to the rule in this case. 3 years ago I got a mare off of the Giveaway forum here at CoTH. She was 8 years old, and only halter broke. I love the American QH breed, and my daughters horse had just been retired.

I drove to NJ, met with Hardwick (Coth Handle) and Page. While she was smaller than I really wanted, I was impressed with her ground manners, and quiet nature. Hardwick and I talked for several hours about what this mare needed, what I could provide, and how I would handle her training. She sold her to me for a insanely reasonable price on the condition she deliver the mare to the woman who I had lined up to train her.

Fast forward 3 years and I could not be more PLEASED with this mare. She is a super level headed, easy to work with mare that is everything she was purported to be. We have done 100s of miles of trails, she self loads, never gets rattled in a scary situation (sometimes I can just feel her heart slamming against my leg) but listens to her rider.

The trainer was here two weeks ago (she is a friend of my Daughter and I ) and took Page on 2 different trail rides. She mentioned how easy she was to train, and how wonderful she has turned out. This is a woman who loves geldings, and usually just tolerates mares. Another CoTH success story.

I was initially very worried about taking on a 8 year old halter-broke only horse. But the difference in this case was she was handled daily. I would not hesitate to do it again, with a similarly handled horse.

I don’t have a lot of luck posting photo links, but I will try here:
[URL=“https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209490691681679&set=a.10209490697241818&type=3&theater”]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10209490691681679&set=a.10209490697241818&type=3&theater

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8762305]
The “bottom line” is that a reasonably healthy, well started four year old is going to represent between $6000 and $8000 of somebody’s money. If the horse sells for less than that somebody just ate a loss. I think it also goes a long way towards explaining horses of this age ending up in the kill pens as breeders struggle to get something to cover their significant losses.[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree with you. However, in our capitalistic society, a horse (or any other piece of property) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. One could, for example, purchase a $100 Craigslist special and put it in full-time training with a well-respected trainer to the tune of $1000/month for five years. There is no guarantee that the end result will be a horse that is worth the $60k+ that has been invested in it.

For example, the horse I am trying to sell is going to be a major loss for me, as I have currently dropped her asking price to about 1/3 of what I have invested in her and only 1/2 of what weanlings by her full brother (who has LESS training than she does!) are actively selling for. Despite the money I will be losing, I can’t sell her for more than someone is willing to pay…

[smoofox]

[QUOTE=2DogsFarm;8761620]
This may be way off-topic, but I was reminded when I read this thread.
This is hardly a new phenomenon:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-05-08/news/9705080158_1_hooved-animal-humane-society-horses-donna-ewing

I had the privilege of seeing Christine Stuckelberger ride Ms. Kosterka’s stallion Troubador, her Reserve for the Swiss team in the '88 Olympics.
From this you might have considered her a reputable breeder.
Sad ending to what might have been.[/QUOTE]

Did I read that correctly!!! The rescue/rehab place bred some of those mares ( or allowed them to be bred)? Not responsible management in any way… even all those years ago. I hope all those horses ended up doing well. There would be no way to find out - almost 20 years later.

[2DogsFarm]

Sorry, I didn’t do more than skim the article.
I’d hope Donna Ewing did not breed any of that herd.
IIRC, Mrs. Kosterka bred, then let the offspring run untouched & unhandled until her death & the bequest.
A friend nearly bought a 5yo mare at the auction, but decided against such a massive training project.

[smoofox]

[QUOTE=2DogsFarm;8761620]
This may be way off-topic, but I was reminded when I read this thread.
This is hardly a new phenomenon:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1997-05-08/news/9705080158_1_hooved-animal-humane-society-horses-donna-ewing

I had the privilege of seeing Christine Stuckelberger ride Ms. Kosterka’s stallion Troubador, her Reserve for the Swiss team in the '88 Olympics.
From this you might have considered her a reputable breeder.
Sad ending to what might have been.[/QUOTE]

Did I read that correctly!!! The rescue/rehab place bred some of those mares ( or allowed them to be bred)? Not responsible management in any way… even all those years ago. I hope all those horses ended up doing well. There would be no way to find out - almost 20 years later.

[2DogsFarm]

Sorry, I didn’t do more than skim the article.
I’d hope Donna Ewing did not breed any of that herd.
IIRC, Mrs. Kosterka bred, then let the offspring run untouched & unhandled until her death & the bequest.
A friend nearly bought a 5yo mare at the auction, but decided against such a massive training project.

ETA:
Okay, reread & my guess is the mares were bred while still in the herd.
Mares & stud colts together = bred mares.
Timing of the article could coincide with mares foaling after being acquired by Ewing.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Montanas_Girl;8762744]
I don’t disagree with you. However, in our capitalistic society, a horse (or any other piece of property) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. One could, for example, purchase a $100 Craigslist special and put it in full-time training with a well-respected trainer to the tune of $1000/month for five years. There is no guarantee that the end result will be a horse that is worth the $60k+ that has been invested in it.

For example, the horse I am trying to sell is going to be a major loss for me, as I have currently dropped her asking price to about 1/3 of what I have invested in her and only 1/2 of what weanlings by her full brother (who has LESS training than she does!) are actively selling for. Despite the money I will be losing, I can’t sell her for more than someone is willing to pay…[/QUOTE]

Concur with your capitalistic analysis. It leads to the famous advice to “never invest in anything that eats.”

G.

[Silver_Silence]

I now have two that were un-touched until they were 5, and then barely until 7yrs and the second just fully halter broke this year at 12 when I took her on.

They were both so difficult in different ways (one with separation anxiety, and the other with a bad habit of kicking at humans… or fighting any human interaction for that matter). They didn’t know any different, it’s MUCH easier to teach them what is acceptable when they are young. People that breed horses willy nilly, and leave them feral in a field until they are ‘mature’, make me rage. It is so much easier to install good manners when they are little, DO IT.

The first mare I broke out when she was a bit younger has done some useful stuff, and the 12 y/o I am still in the process of breaking to saddle (has been a busy spring and summer and am busy taking kids to shows ). I have no time line for either of these horses, they are in luck, I will keep them for fun because I can.

#1 is now a steady trail buddy. And also goes english when the spirit moves me…

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/555381_10151699794037449_1615816556_n.jpg?oh=592995ef1928ad0616c792e7e5244c0e&oe=5824D3ED

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10703823_10152428962582449_854381376509095795_n.jpg?oh=cac7fd070a501d4b2a9397f073999a90&oe=582215E5

#2 is still a work in progress, and will be the same.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12805916_10153518004992449_194416046300893224_n.jpg?oh=dafa4b86868b57aa9ece11a5bf9843ec&oe=582FC866

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12814784_10153530638202449_6431242256921124286_n.jpg?oh=54616e44f733f7218055617b40898d82&oe=57E965D4

I love them both dearly for what they’ve each taught me, but they are not the rule for most like them, and are very lucky girls.

Great, clean legs on both of them though. :lol: :rolleyes:

[Lady_Eboshi]

Same again this week in Jersey–somebody dumped a whole load of “grade studs, 12 years old, halter broke.”

For those of you looking for a “bargain,” get ye down there tonight . . . :no:

[ThirdCharm]

“I know you breed so you must be used to babies being a little rough…” Said to me by a breeder when I was trying to trim her horses, several were old enough to be under saddle but considering you could barely put them in cross ties and pick up their feet without getting kicked… Shudder. Yeah I am used to babies… So I know how incredibly easy it is to teach them to stand quietly tied and pick their feet up (among other things) without a whole lot of bloody effort… There is no d**n reason for trimming young stock to be a rodeo. Of course, anyone who thinks ‘parents failed at the track’ = ‘bred for sport’…
Ugh.

Jennifer

[Countrywood]

** breeders, they should be life time responsible for horse if they are going to breed these days, unless they are the rare breeder who has a waiting list of people waiting to buy. We see it even now with WB and PRE, an over supply and young stock going cheap or discarded in any less in demand breed.

No, most breeders are not going to train, for most of them it’s a hobby, not a business, or a tax write off . When the hobby becomes boring or something else catches their interest, these hobby breeders sell the farm and horses or just the older horses for next to nothing, (while they keep breeding more).

What is a “responsbile breeder”…one who does not breed, knowing there is a horse over population, or one who breeds once every 5 years, rather than every year, because the pool of horse buyers is limited, and the pool of buyers for young or barely broke stock even more limited, and once a buyer owns a horse, they (hopefully) keep them longer than a year, they are not going to be looking for a replacement year in and year out the way breeders breed a new crop year in and year out.

Anger is the appropriate emotion, same as the dismal breeding with dogs , nobody wants licensing for breeders and accountability, and it;s the discarded animals who keep paying the price.

[abrant]

Last spring I went to a farm that looked like a refugee camp for ponies. Literally willy-nilly breeding. Skinny horses. Limb deformities. Everything over 2 was pregnant or involved with make pregnancies.

After I wasn’t as in awe as the owner expected and kept pushing back on the prices he was quoting, he got in my face and told me I was never going to find what I was looking for in my price range “and as a breeder I hope you don’t”.

Super horrifying experience when I was looking at horses that were going to need thousands of dollars and months of rehab to even be at a reasonable starting point. Some 3 year olds had obviously never had their feet trimmed. Worming wasn’t something that happened there. 30-40 horses on 5-6 acres.

The sad part is I’m pretty sure these people knew they were in over their head to a certain degree. But I still see this guy posting in local groups looking for mares of specific colors or wanting to meet up at sale barns to buy mares… It’s definitely an illness at that point…

The sad part that I see more epidemically is that horses like this are on Craigslist or FB groups for $800-1500 the future of the horse is the kill pen or starving to death on the back 40 but these people REFUSE to let them go to good homes without a return on their “investment” and they REFUSE to stop breeding them. No… the investment is MINE if I take one of your crippled, wild, wormy, skinny horses home.

(I ended up finding an up-to-date on everything unbroke-ish 7 year old for $500 with problems of his own but at least my farrier didn’t murder me over it

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8766923]
Same again this week in Jersey–somebody dumped a whole load of “grade studs, 12 years old, halter broke.”

For those of you looking for a “bargain,” get ye down there tonight . . . :no:[/QUOTE]

Just saw those. Incredible isn’t it?
There are some mares too, I don’t know but do wonder if they came from the same place, and therefore if they are ‘exposed’ to said unbroken, [and some unhalter broke] teen studs.
headdesk

Their rescue division/promoters keep lamenting that the horses are taking longer to sell [or are ending up there for more than the 3 days- Wed. night to Sat.]… Instead of asking their supporters to share, share, share… how about they ask the asshats running the joint to stop buying what is near impossible to sell at a profit.

.

[quietann]

@Doctor'sOrders;8761818

Everyone buys made now! I can count on one hand the horses in the barn I board at (over 100 horses on property) who were started by their current owner. It probably wouldn’t even take two hands to count the owners who are only one removed from the trainer who started the horse!

Who are your boarders? If, as in many places, middle-aged or older ladies, it’s probably a good thing they’re buying made horses!

I just sold my 2 YO Morgan filly back to her breeder at basically a “get her off my payroll” price. I had about $13K in her, having bought her off video when she was 10 days old. This filly is easy easy easy, though like all youngsters she had her moments, and at age 50+, with hardware holding my collarbone together, I wouldn’t have thought of starting her myself. I basically sold her back because we just weren’t “clicking.” Not the fault of the filly, or me; I am relieved, and the filly is in the best possible place to have a good future.

The breeder will not let her leave until she has 90 days under saddle, sometime next year. Now if someone else wants to buy her in the meantime, and pay the breeder to train her, that’s fine. Breeder does a great job with her youngsters, from the time they are born, but won’t saddle-train anything she didn’t breed anymore, because she wants a horse she knows, before she ever gets it ready to ride.

Basically someone along the way has to be willing to lose money, to get a horse to “made.” Having done it once, I won’t be able to afford to do it for years now, and I wouldn’t start with a baby filly I hadn’t even met.

(Her breeder doesn’t usually keep youngsters. They tend to sell in utero or shortly after birth, and most buyers get them when they are weaned or a few months thereafter. It’s very unusual for a buyer to ever put their baby up for sale again.)

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8768192]
Just saw those. Incredible isn’t it?
There are some mares too, I don’t know but do wonder if they came from the same place, and therefore if they are ‘exposed’ to said unbroken, [and some unhalter broke] teen studs.
headdesk

Their rescue division/promoters keep lamenting that the horses are taking longer to sell [or are ending up there for more than the 3 days- Wed. night to Sat.]… Instead of asking their supporters to share, share, share… how about they ask the asshats running the joint to stop buying what is near impossible to sell at a profit.

.[/QUOTE]

That old Standie looks sweet . . . my pick of the week along with the cute Welsh 4 year old, who needs to be gelded and then trained.

The guys running the joint are laughing all the way to the bank–every single week. They outbid the KB’s at New Holland for these guys, where they run through loose for under $100.00, then a short trailer ride later they get six times that from the “rescuers.” Note that almost every unusable critter they sell is under 15 hands, or skinny, or a stud, or has a foal at foot, or is a gray. Know why? The KB’s don’t want those. Studs need a separate compartment, mares w/foals can’t be shipped, skinny doesn’t pay and why ship 14 hands when you can get an extra $250.00 shipping one bigger and fatter? The biggest crock is the FB-weepers really BELIEVE that all those minis are going to ship out to Canada! But why let facts get in the way of a great story? :rolleyes:

Assuming they came from the same place, what I’d like to know is who can tolerate dealing with a bunch of un-halter-broken TWELVE year old STUDS? That must be quite a piece of hoss-whisperin’! :eek:

May they all land softly . . . somewhere ELSE!

[Angela_Freda]

I love how they insist that there be no armchair diagnostics. because it hurts the horses chances and you can’t REALLY know what’s wrong from a video/pic anyway… and then post this video and suggest ‘She looks like she is in need of some farrier attention…’

https://www.facebook.com/cranburysalestable/videos/1074389402617015/

[Lady_Eboshi]

Yeah, “give them some painkillers,” but if they did, then they’d be accused of misrepresenting the horses for sale.

These FB commenters talk like this is a New Thing, but it’s been going on since the Roman Empire. Buy a horse at the sale = caveat emptor. The right attitude is to see it as a revolving door; what doesn’t work out, goes back next week. At least, that’s how my boss used to play it Back in the Day–and we had a solid string of schoolies who lasted FOREVER, I can tell you! Darwin ruled.

Very different from today’s “rescue” mentality.

[511]

Everyone here has been asked by a non horse person. “How much does a horse cost?”

My answer is “About as much as a car.”

You want to be handed the reins of that eight year old, vice free, well-schooled sound horse expect to pay as much as a new car. (In reality the cost is about half the cost of a new car)

For the get you there nothing to write home about horse has about the price of cost about the price of an economy car to get where he is a horse that someone wants.

The young show/sport horse costs about (half) as much as a sports car.

I can’t remember the magazine (Practical Horseman? Equus?) and it was several years back but there was a feel good piece about a very aged saddlebred mare* who because of her pedigree and the caliber of her prodigy was more valuable as a producer than under saddle. When she was sold for the last time she was impossible to get in foal. Well the new owners left holding the halter shank of this barren mare decided she was too healthy to not have a job so they broke (or rebroke if she was trained) this old enough-to-vote mare for their granddaughter and they showed and won and the people who asked about her were stunned that this young rider was riding the dam of some of the best saddlebreds in the country.

A good horse really is never too old.

*I think the mares name was something like ‘Little Stella’, ‘Estrella’, ‘Starla’ some name that ended in ‘lla’ perhaps the gaited horse people can chime in.