If the horse respects you, he will move when you ask him to move. If he does not respect you, he won’t bother to move when you apply pressure. Pressure may be as light as it can be… a “look” from you, a chirp, a word, or as direct as it must be to get his attention. If he doesn’t move from you when you ask, he does not respect you enough to bother to move. If you don’t have this relationship established with your horse, YOU are not in control of the horse. “Moving forward” is the first step in any training done with a horse. “Free Forward Motion” is the first necessity of the classical training scale. If you don’t have that, you haven’t yet started to train the horse. The fact that he lets you sit on his back is just because he doesn’t mind that, he can ignore you up there just the same as he ignores you on the ground. If you want to ride the horse forward, get “forward” on the ground FIRST, then switch the pressure from voice and touch (with a stick or lunge whip) to pressure from your leg when under saddle. But you have to get it on the ground FIRST, “ground work”. Ground work is cueing the horse, and getting a response, and supplying a reward for that response. If the horse does not respond to cues on the ground, he’s not “broke”, nor is he ready to ride. He needs to respect you enough to move when you ask him to move. He should be watching you keenly and carefully, seeking cues from you, forward cues, change of gait cues, and whoa cues. You do not accept “ignoring cues” as a possibility. Get “bigger”. Don’t accept being ignored by your horse as a response.
Ehhh… I think this is less about “respect” and more about the horse not knowing what’s expected of him.
A horse who has been raised by horses understands “respect”. They understand “social order”. They “move” when a superior horse tells them to “move”. If a horse does not extend similar behaviour towards the human in their life, this is a response to the human not establishing the same system of hierarchy that the horse already knows. He knows. He just isn’t extending his response to this human. IDK if he will extend a respectful response to another human if a respectful relationship is introduced to him, but usually they will, if the communication is clear. Because the horse knows about this. It’s the human who doesn’t know. The human needs to be taught how to be the leader in the horse’s life. The horse has to hold the human in some awe, as the source of good ideas, safety, and respect… a “benevolent dictator”.
I think you’re anthropomorphizing a bit, in the sense that you’re extending herd hierarchy to the (comparatively) bizarre things humans ask horses to do.
A horse in a herd does not ask a horse to move over in the same way a human does.
A horse in a herd does not ask a horse to move faster the same way a human does. Nor do they ask for a specific gait.
I think this horse has an excessively quiet nature, and most horses are not forward if given an option.
It’s not “respect” driven, because that attaches a sinister motivation to it.
Yes, I can see respect being a component - he’s only been in my care 2 weeks so I’m working on it and setting consistent expectations.
However, in my unprofessional opinion, this ^^ is the biggest “thing.” I’ve been assuming that he knows more than he actually does and then when he ends up shutting down because he’s frustrated I’m befuddled.
My ottb can be sluggish in his response on the lunge. I found he does pay more attention if I use a flag instead of a lunge whip, like this (though i started ysing the flag at the suggestion of my trainer, with her assistance the first tine): https://www.ridingwarehouse.com/Epic_Animal_Clinician_Training_Flag/descpage-EAFL.html?color=BK
You are getting some great advice on this thread. I won’t repeat it but just add some thoughts.
So long as the horse is behaving the same way without a change during/after a session with you, including longeing, stop doing it. If there is no change then each session is just reinforcing the behavior.
Every repetition maps the behavior pattern a bit more deeply into the horse’s brain. You want to change the map, not make it even more ingrained. (Also the brain of any animal or human works this way.)
And repeating the wrong behavior is mapping it into your brain too, probably. Haven’t seen you in action but from your descriptions it sounds as if you are accepting his behavior to some extent. Probably because this is the way he came to you and you now identify the horse with the behavior.
Think of him as “a horse”, not as “a lazy horse”. Your expectation is everything with this project. You won’t get more until you expect more.
Studies show that horses can make significant behavior changes within a short period of time. Of course it takes much longer for the change to become the new habit. Studies show that horses are one of the most adaptable = trainable species on the planet. It does require the right technique, repetition and consistency.
You say you are ‘working on it’ but you aren’t talking about much change happening. Two weeks is enough time to make significant progress because the horse is now responding to a new environment, and they adapt within 2-3 weeks (if sessions are frequent and consistent).
You won’t have a total change to perfection in that time, of course. But you should have a horse that is moving for you, even with annoyance. That is increasingly attentive to you, even if they are calling you bad names with their eyes & ears. All that aggravation will pass in time when they adapt to the new consistent expectations. Horses greatly appreciate consistency and will work for it
So if change is not happening, you must look to yourself and you must get more help (as you are doing here). Even from youtube if you don’t have good help on the ground. I’m not recommending any youtube at this moment but there is some useful stuff out there (and unfortunately some absolute claptrap).
The prior handling by other people may be the reason that this behavior was instilled. But those people are not the reason it continues now that the horse is with you. Adjust your own thinking to you being the reason for his current behavior in the moment so that you are more willing to make firmer changes.
You are not responsible for how he got this way, but make yourself responsible for his behavior right now, his behavior today.
You didn’t start this, I’ll give you that, but you are finishing it. Whichever way it goes.
The next thing to mention is this: You must get his attention *** on you *** at all times. If a horse is not responding to the human, in my experience that means that the human is not on the horse’s radar. And the human needs to be the primary thing on a horse’s radar at all times a human is with the horse.
He’s thinking about grass, the horizon, other horses, random sounds and smells – but he’s ruled out the human as an important factor. He can and will change this habit to pay attention to you, and to be ready to check with you.
Bother him all the time you are with him to insist he acknowledge you. He’ll be annoyed as hell until it starts to sink in.
Your message to him on the ground and under saddle, at all times, is “check with me, check with me, check with me”. Hold the mindset that every minute you are with him, both of you are working. This is the work. In the moment, adjust your mindset, then right away adjust his mindset.
If you are with him it is “you time”. He has 22-23 hours during the rest of the day to think about what he wants to think about, to graze and ignore. At first he won’t be happy about making this habit change but it will happen if you make it happen.
Reward every small effort, as someone already said the reward may be just backing off the pressure for a few seconds.
And every small inattention needs a new input from you, even if it’s just a pat or a gentle halter tug.
Don’t do the ‘lazy’ thing on your part and just hang around with the horse in hand, doing nothing. Chatting with others, etc. Allowing him to elect to graze while you ignore him. That is reinforcing the ignoring behavior.
If you and the horse are together, you are both working – working on him paying attention to you and you giving him little things to pay attention to. Bring your best work ethic to the game.
If you hand-graze him, pay out a longer line so you are not right next to him. Make it very clear that this is a change in your expectations while you permit grazing, so that it is different from the rest of your time with him.
Anyway … bottom line, you should be seeing changes. If that is not happening, your first thought should always be “what can I be doing, what should I be doing, to make this better?”
Herewith banish the thoughts “his owner / previous handler allowed this, that’s why he does it”. That’s true, of course, but you need to be thinking ahead to your future with the horse, not behind to his past. Eliminate the word “lazy”. Up your expectations. Think only about what you should be doing about it right now.
There isn’t anything anyone can tell you to that will flip a switch in his brain. Life with horses would be so much easier if that could happen! It is really up to you to make the changes. It sounds like you are interested and willing to do that.
And/or … as someone said, if you don’t want to train a lease horse from the ground up, change the horse you have to another horse, rather than re-training this one. If you put time into this horse, get results, and then it is all thrown away when the lease is over – well, I personally wouldn’t be thrilled about that. I’d have to think if I am getting what I want out of the lease. But that is your personal choice and satisfaction level, of course.
Yeah, I didn’t want to tell a 13 year old with a half lease to start hitting the horse and working in the round pen without supervision :). But thoughtful adults can figure this out even if they are horsey beginners!
As far as training a lease horse, in this case the problem training gaps don’t seem to be dangerous to you, and you will learn a lot, so even if you improve the horse for free for the owner you’ve probably benefitted. Is this a free or care lease? I assume he’s not one of those high priced hunter or eq horse annual leases!
I guess I see it as exactly the same. Either you MOVE when someone else tells you to, or you don’t. It’s not species specific. If you (or a horse) respects the source of the direction, you move. If you (or a horse) does not respect the source of the que, you (or a horse) either ignores the ask, or gives the third finger salute to the being that is being a nuisance. It takes only a few minutes to explain to a horse about the validity of an “ask”. They are always very fluent in body language, far more so than a human is.
The trainer must exude authority, intelligence, and safety (protection) for the horse. A horse wants to feel safe, and wants to do the right thing, if he can understand what the right thing is. We reward the try, congratulate the horse for making a try, and if the horse respects the trainer, this urges the horse to try again, try harder. If he does not have respect for the trainer, he does not bother to move or to try. The trainer can bleat out all the commands they like, all the kisses and platitudes of love they like,the horse doesn’t care about that. Ignores those who are irrelevant in the horses life because they have not proven to be relevant to the horse or the horse’s behaviour. A trainer who is skilled in equine communication can prove relevance and gain respect from a horse in a few minutes only. Respect is something that is earned by the trainer by reading the horse and establishing clear lines of mutual communication very quickly.
This is not respect though, it’s conditioned response. It has no ‘human’ aspect to it.
There are a myriad of things you could be doing to confuse the horse.
This isn’t your horse. And if you’re having problems, you need to lean on your trainer and the owner, not a bunch of people who don’t know the horse or situation.
People can train horses in strange ways. Get the owner to lunge the horse for you and teach you what the horse knows.
I don’t understand what you mean by “no human aspect”? The human aspect is the OP here. The horse aspect is the horse which is ignoring cues.
I think that the OP needs to watch a skilled and experienced trainer communicate effectively and precisely with a horse, to see the effective use of communication with a horse to effect what we want the horse to do for us. And how to earn the horse’s respect by doing so.
We’re on totally different paths here. I’m not going to attribute human emotions to an animal. Horses respond to the release of pressure. It has nothing to do with the Human.
Why do school horses need tune ups? Is it the lack of respect, or is it the kids riding them don’t apply/release pressure at the right times, untraining the conditioned response?
I’m not sure it matters what contemporary jargon we use, either respect or operant conditioning or something else like teamwork. The process and effect are about the same. There is certainly an emotional and intellectual engagement on the horses part that is beyond mere operant conditioning and many horses only do their best for one person. But it’s also true that horses learn through consistent use of cues. However, they see body cues before they hear verbal cues.
But then horses can learn from one single instance, if the fear or the reward was big enough. This is usually about environment not training goals. That’s how you can make a horse hard to load with one bad experience.
Oh well I guess I do see emotions in an animal, quite a lot, I guess. A horse is not a machine. He has ideas and opinions. He has thoughts, likes and dislikes. He feels fear, and love. He gives trust, and develops lack of trust if let down by someone they have previously extended trust to. And if you want his respect, you need to earn it in your dealings with him.
My experience with school horses is limited to those I knew 50+ years ago. They were never lunged or tuned up by anyone, ever. They were patient, and forgiving of mistakes made by kids and greenies, and would strive to do the right thing, as far as they could discern, given the sometimes confusing cues they were given. That’s why they were good school horses.
Oh that’s SUPER interesting! Thank you.
Feel free to correct me, I’m simply engaging in what I think is a healthy debate, but I think that I can label him as “lazy” in an effort to possibly understand motivation behind not wanting to do something, while also being aware of his potential and physical capabilities. I totally get what you’re saying about expectations - I just don’t think the label itself is damning, ya know?
Correct - I didn’t start any kind of physical work the first 7 days so that he could adjust to his new location and new living situation (went from stall to full time field board). Additionally, I had the vet scheduled to come out during that timeframe anyways so I wanted to rule out pain.
During the first 7 (ish) days, however, I was reviewing basic manners and groundwork fundamentals to get a baseline for what I was dealing with as his newest handler and in his new environment. I’m gathering you’re someone who wants specifics of what I’m doing. So what I did was: leading, standing still in and out of cross ties, flexing and softening to pressure, moving front and hind end, picking up all feet (does that count as groundwork?), hand walks around the property and in grass to address the grabbing for grass, walking over poles and jumps or anything odd on the ground, etc. I think that’s a good super basic overview of what I was focusing on.
Yep absolutely and already set my next lesson to be on the ground for a lunge specific lesson. I’ll see what I can find on YouTube that could help me, so thanks for that suggestion
Solid sentiment. “I don’t start it but I can tell you how it ends” - Taylor Swift, 2022
I didn’t see you made another reply.
To be clear - I haven’t been allowing it and I do not hand graze my horses. So the grazing issue while inhand has made significant progress since I took over since I just don’t allow it. The grazing is when he’s off lead (free lunging) and he sees a loop hole in not being connected.
Hey if you had I would have asked if you were my “trainer” from when I was a kid!! 
Free/care lease with the end goal being to buy him. I get genuine satisfaction from a “project” so when I was doing my initial risk assessment (aka meeting him) I determined that the “issues” were not dangerous and I feel as though I have adequate support beyond myself to address small things. Beyond the few things outlined in this thread, he’s a genuinely good citizen with a good brain.
